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Profile Wormholio
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Message 6946 - Posted: 31 Dec 2007 | 18:11:41 UTC
Last modified: 31 Dec 2007 | 18:12:09 UTC

I'd like to enlist the Linux crew to help me test something new for BOINC: an RPM package to install the client software, automatically run as a Unix 'daemon', and controllable via the BOINC Manager.

If you are familiar with RPM then you should be able to install the package easily, though if you already have BOINC installed then you may want to make adjustments first. This is documented (for now) at http://pirates.spy-hill.net/help/linux-rpm.html and the pages it links to. If you are not familiar with RPM then it should still be fairly easy to install this package on systems which use RPM.

I'd really appreciate it if some of this crew would try it out, and also look over the documentation pages. Please consider the documentation from the point of view of both an experienced Unix user and as a novice. The package also installs Unix man pages, s o comments on them are also solicited.

I want to be sure to thank Kathryn Marks for alpha testing this before I announced it for further testing. And I want to thank her for creating the logrotate configuration file.

Questions, comments, and criticisms all welcomed.
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Message 6948 - Posted: 1 Jan 2008 | 13:00:05 UTC - in response to Message 6946.
Last modified: 1 Jan 2008 | 13:02:49 UTC

A question Captain: on page http://pirates.spy-hill.net/help/linux-mvdir.html

the last item:

5) Test it by starting the core client. For example:

/etc/init.d/start


Shouldn't that be "/etc/init.d/boinc start"?


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Message 6949 - Posted: 1 Jan 2008 | 13:15:12 UTC - in response to Message 6948.

LudwigVonDrake wrote:
A question Captain: on page http://pirates.spy-hill.net/help/linux-mvdir.html

the last item:
5) Test it by starting the core client. For example:

/etc/init.d/start


Shouldn't that be "/etc/init.d/boinc start"?




As far as I know, yes.

Sorry Captain. I should have proofread that page a little more closely.
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Message 6950 - Posted: 1 Jan 2008 | 13:21:26 UTC

I just read the man pages. I had forgotten all about them.

The manager one is missing a description of the simple GUI. I believe when I did a clean install of the rpm, it started up in the simple view.
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Message 6952 - Posted: 1 Jan 2008 | 14:26:03 UTC - in response to Message 6948.

LudwigVonDrake wrote:
the last item:
5) Test it by starting the core client. For example:

/etc/init.d/start


Shouldn't that be "/etc/init.d/boinc start"?


Indeed it should be. Thank you.

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Message 6953 - Posted: 1 Jan 2008 | 14:27:32 UTC - in response to Message 6950.

KSMarksPsych wrote:
The manager one is missing a description of the simple GUI. I believe when I did a clean install of the rpm, it started up in the simple view.

Good point. Is there existing documentation of the simple GUI I can use, or do we have to write something from scratch.

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Message 6955 - Posted: 1 Jan 2008 | 22:33:22 UTC

I made a discovery last night.

I accidentally double clicked the rpm on my desktop. And lo and behold, it started the install process. I had no idea you could do that.

Basically, you double click. It brings up a box for the root password. Once you enter that, the package manager resolves any dependencies and then installs.


The only thing it doesn't seem to do is check the signature.


This was done on Fedora 7 with KDE. If any Gnome folks can try this, it would be much appreciated.
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Message 6956 - Posted: 1 Jan 2008 | 22:38:55 UTC - in response to Message 6953.

Wormholio wrote:
KSMarksPsych wrote:
The manager one is missing a description of the simple GUI. I believe when I did a clean install of the rpm, it started up in the simple view.

Good point. Is there existing documentation of the simple GUI I can use, or do we have to write something from scratch.


You probably can start with the Trac Wiki page.

http://boinc.berkeley.edu/trac/wiki/ManagerSimple
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Message 6965 - Posted: 4 Jan 2008 | 14:59:36 UTC
Last modified: 4 Jan 2008 | 15:02:43 UTC

Just reporting my experience trying to use the RPM on a SuSE 10.0 64 bit installation (copied from a post to the World Community Grid forum, as requested by Kathryn):

"The RPM package won't install. YaST reports a conflict, saying I need libc.so.6 and that it isn't available even though it's installed on my system:

peter@linux:~> locate libc.so
/lib/i686/libc.so.6
/lib/libc.so.6
/lib/tls/libc.so.6
/lib64/klibc/lib/libc.so
/lib64/libc.so.6
/lib64/tls/libc.so.6
/usr/lib64/libc.so
/usr/lib64/nptl/libc.so
peter@linux:~>

I guess the RPM expects it somewhere else, so unless anyone has any more ideas, it looks as though I'm stuck"

Hope this helps someone.


Peter

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Message 6966 - Posted: 4 Jan 2008 | 16:01:11 UTC - in response to Message 6965.

Peter Bradley wrote:
Hope this helps someone.

yes, it helps a lot to know what doesn't work.

Which package was this? Kathryn and I both found that the 5.10.28-1 package failed for us too, so I've just now deleted it. So if that was it (it was the latest, so I'd not be surprised if you chose that) then perhaps you could try 5.10.21-18?

Both of those were assembled from the binaries from Berkeley, but I'm now setting up the build and package scripting to build from source on Fedora machines.

Thank you very much for any further testing you are willing to do.

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Message 6967 - Posted: 4 Jan 2008 | 16:03:25 UTC

Your assumption is spot on. I'm on my way ...

(Watch this space)

:)


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Message 6970 - Posted: 4 Jan 2008 | 16:59:31 UTC

Yep. That worked (version 5.10.21-18). Had me going for a bit until I found you'd shifted the executables to /usr/bin from usr/local/bin.

It even survived a reboot - despite saying that starting the daemon had failed. When I checked, I found it hadn't failed, and boincmgr started and connected just fine.

For ease of use I've added boincmgr to the SuSE menu giving it /usr/bin/boincmgr as the command and /var/lib/boinc as the "Work path". This works OK, too.

Don't hesitate to ask if you want me to try out anything else for you. I may not always be this quick (I'm at home recovering from the Noro Virus that's sweeping the UK at the moment), but I'll always give things a go.

Thanks for all your help


Peter

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Message 6972 - Posted: 4 Jan 2008 | 19:36:29 UTC - in response to Message 6970.
Last modified: 4 Jan 2008 | 19:37:11 UTC

Peter Bradley wrote:
Yep. That worked (version 5.10.21-18).

Wonderful.

Had me going for a bit until I found you'd shifted the executables to /usr/bin from usr/local/bin.

Packages install in /usr/bin and stay away from /usr/local/bin, so I had to follow that convention.

It even survived a reboot - despite saying that starting the daemon had failed. When I checked, I found it hadn't failed, and boincmgr started and connected just fine.

Let me know if that continues. If so, we can try to debug it.

For ease of use I've added boincmgr to the SuSE menu giving it /usr/bin/boincmgr as the command and /var/lib/boinc as the "Work path". This works OK, too.

Great. Is that something any SUSE user would know about, or should it be documented somewhere?

Don't hesitate to ask if you want me to try out anything else for you.

Thanks. There will be further packages to test. Your help would be much appreciated. But I hope you have a speedy recovery.
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Message 6973 - Posted: 4 Jan 2008 | 20:20:55 UTC - in response to Message 6972.

Packages install in /usr/bin and stay away from /usr/local/bin, so I had to follow that convention.


Yeah. No problem. Just creased my brow for a bit :)

Let me know if that continues. If so, we can try to debug it.


OK. That's a deal.

Is that something any SUSE user would know about, or should it be documented somewhere?


It's not superuser standard, but if we're serious about catering for naive users then I guess we should document. In fact I'd be happy to write all of this up for you (with pictures). Just email me at the email address of my account if you'd like me to do something. That's the best way of guaranteeing to get my attention, I think.

There will be further packages to test. Your help would be much appreciated.


Just email me. I'll always do the best I can to help. I'm an impatient and incompetent admin, so if you can get me to get things to work, it'll work with just about anyone, I'd say.

But I hope you have a speedy recovery.


Oh, I'm just contagious now. Not sick at all. Back to work on Monday. But thanks very much for the good wishes.

Cheers, and many thanks.


Peter

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Message 6975 - Posted: 4 Jan 2008 | 21:01:43 UTC - in response to Message 6973.

Wormholio wrote:
Is that something any SUSE user would know about, or should it be documented somewhere?


Peter Bradley wrote:
It's not superuser standard, but if we're serious about catering for naive users then I guess we should document. In fact I'd be happy to write all of this up for you (with pictures).

I'm serious about helping newbies get going. I think ideally this would end up in the BOINC Wiki. You could either write it up as a page there, or create one here in the Pirates wiki and then I'll take care of moving it over there when it's ready. Thanks!

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Message 6977 - Posted: 4 Jan 2008 | 22:20:12 UTC - in response to Message 6975.

Wormholio wrote:
I'm serious about helping newbies get going. I think ideally this would end up in the BOINC Wiki. You could either write it up as a page there, or create one here in the Pirates wiki and then I'll take care of moving it over there when it's ready. Thanks!


It's not immediately clear to me how I'd do either of those things. I can see mailing lists and the like, but no wikis. Maybe this web 2.0 thing's too complicated for me in my old age.

But if you can explain it to me (as to a child), then I'll be more than happy to oblige.


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Message 6979 - Posted: 5 Jan 2008 | 1:05:22 UTC - in response to Message 6977.
Last modified: 5 Jan 2008 | 1:09:32 UTC

Peter Bradley wrote:
It's not immediately clear to me how I'd do either of those things. I can see mailing lists and the like, but no wikis. Maybe this web 2.0 thing's too complicated for me in my old age.

But if you can explain it to me (as to a child), then I'll be more than happy to oblige.


Sure. Maybe it will help other members of the crew as well.

1. On the main Pirates@Home page, under "More about Pirates@Home", you'll find a link to "A Pirates' Glossary". (There is also a shortcut link at the top of and bottom of every page.) The glossary is implemented as a wiki -- a set of pages which any member of the crew can easily edit or add to. (I've just adjusted the policy to make that so. In a previous round of tests you had to have recent credit to be allowed to contribute to the glossary.)

2. Think of a good name for the page. How about "Adding BOINC Manager to the SuSE menu"? You decide. Enter that in the "Search" box at the left and press "Go".

3. That page doesn't exist, so you'll be told so, and given a link which lets you create it. So follow that link to create the new page.

4. Edit the page. Regular text works fine, with blank lines to begin a new paragraph, just like in the forums. You can also use HTML for formatting (but not links). And if you follow the "Help" link at the left you'll find more information about wiki markup, which lets you deal with links and do other more complex things, if you want. Or figure out some of the annoying little "gotchas".

5. You'll need to preview the page before you save the final result. It's a good idea to preview often and save occasionally. Every time you save your work you should indicate what you changed with a one-line description. You'll be prompted for it if you forget it, but you can just press save again if you really don't want to enter the summary. (But why not help everyone else by providing one?)

6. Write what you know and leave it at that. You can come back later to make improvements. Other people can also come along and help by adding what they know or fixing mistakes. And sometimes they change something you didn't want changed. Change it back, or live with it. Just be civil about it. (Each page has a "talk" page -- use the "annotations" tab at the top of the page -- where people can discuss what should or should not go in the article).

7. Use the "Upload file or image" link in the toolbox at the left of every page to upload images, such as [[screenshots]]. See the Help article about images to show you how to include images in an article. It's fairly easy, and [[screenshots]] can be very useful.

8. Ask for help if there is anything you don't know how to do, or if you want to enlist others to write some other article, or for anything else.

I'd encourage anybody else here who is interested to create their own glossary article about their favorite esoteric BOINC topic. If it's something of general interest we can move it over to the Unofficial BOINC wiki (www.boinc-wiki.info). Or you can just go there to create your article, since it works exactly the same way.
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Message 6980 - Posted: 5 Jan 2008 | 1:14:05 UTC - in response to Message 6972.
Last modified: 5 Jan 2008 | 1:14:36 UTC

Peter Bradley wrote:
It even survived a reboot - despite saying that starting the daemon had failed. When I checked, I found it hadn't failed, and boincmgr started and connected just fine.

Wormholio wrote:
Let me know if that continues. If so, we can try to debug it.



Wow, I just noticed this when I rebooted this morning. I don't know how long it's been going on. I rarely reboot and when I do I'm usually doing other stuff so I let grub and Fedora do their own thing.

(Gah! I miss preview!)
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Message 6981 - Posted: 5 Jan 2008 | 1:32:52 UTC - in response to Message 6970.
Last modified: 5 Jan 2008 | 1:33:12 UTC

Peter Bradley wrote:

For ease of use I've added boincmgr to the SuSE menu giving it /usr/bin/boincmgr as the command and /var/lib/boinc as the "Work path". This works OK, too.



Oh cool. I just figured out how to do this in Fedora/KDE. I didn't even know you could add stuff to the K Menu.

It doesn't seem to take much to amuse me these days. Case and point, xeyes.
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Message 6983 - Posted: 5 Jan 2008 | 11:58:14 UTC - in response to Message 6980.

KSMarksPsych wrote:
Wow, I just noticed this when I rebooted this morning. I don't know how long it's been going on. I rarely reboot and when I do I'm usually doing other stuff so I let grub and Fedora do their own thing.


I had a look at the script. It think it may be just a matter of not waiting long enough for a PID to be returned. I've changed the sleep 1 to sleep 2 in my script and I'll check that next time I reboot (in a couple of hours or so, when I've finished what I'm doing). If it doesn't work, I'll extend the time a bit more until it's obvious that this isn't the problem :)

I'll let you know.

Cheers



Peter

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Message 6984 - Posted: 5 Jan 2008 | 12:01:33 UTC - in response to Message 6981.

KSMarksPsych wrote:
Oh cool. I just figured out how to do this in Fedora/KDE. I didn't even know you could add stuff to the K Menu.


Do you agree it would be a good idea to document it, and would it still be a good idea for me to do that? Or would you prefer to do it yourself? I'm happy either way.

Cheers


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Message 6985 - Posted: 5 Jan 2008 | 12:46:07 UTC - in response to Message 6983.

Peter Bradley wrote:
I've changed the sleep 1 to sleep 2 in my script and I'll check that next time I reboot (in a couple of hours or so, when I've finished what I'm doing). If it doesn't work, I'll extend the time a bit more until it's obvious that this isn't the problem


Yup. That's all it is. But it needs more than 2ms.

I tried it at 2ms without luck, so I altered it to 5ms (I know, it should have been 4, but don't you just want to break the mould sometimes?) and that's worked fine for two reboots. I haven't the patience to try more; but I reckon it should now be OK.

Let me know what you'd like me to do about the Wiki/Glossary entry. I'm happy to do it, but I don't want to tread on anyone's toes now that there's a more experienced person whose done it. Put it down to European reticence.

:)

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Message 6986 - Posted: 5 Jan 2008 | 13:13:25 UTC - in response to Message 6984.

Peter Bradley wrote:
KSMarksPsych wrote:
Oh cool. I just figured out how to do this in Fedora/KDE. I didn't even know you could add stuff to the K Menu.


Do you agree it would be a good idea to document it, and would it still be a good idea for me to do that? Or would you prefer to do it yourself? I'm happy either way.

Cheers


Peter


Yes. It's definitely a good idea to document it. I don't want to speak for Eric, but as I see it, one of the goals of putting together the rpm is making it as easy as possible to run BOINC in Linux. I started out by doing the daemon install and it was overwhelming to say the least. If I had an rpm it would have made getting started easier. Given this goal, if we can make it so all people have to do is point and click, then all the better.

I'm not sure of how you added the manager to the Suse menu, so we can either both write up separate pages or just make one page and have both sets of instructions (unless of course we're doing the same thing then we can collaborate on this).

Preference Eric?
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Message 6987 - Posted: 5 Jan 2008 | 13:55:07 UTC - in response to Message 6986.

KSMarksPsych wrote:
I started out by doing the daemon install and it was overwhelming to say the least. If I had an rpm it would have made getting started easier. Given this goal, if we can make it so all people have to do is point and click, then all the better.


Yes. I think the instructions for installing the RPM are just fine. Some of the best I've seen actually. Whenever I do documentation I try to finish up by following my documented steps, entirely mindlessly. If I still finish up with a successful install (or whatever), then I know the document is OK. The existing documentation for the BOINC RPMs passes this just about fully - and it's a very stiff test.

KSMarksPsych wrote:
I'm not sure of how you added the manager to the Suse menu ...


Probably exactly as you did to the K menu under Fedora. The SuSE menu is just the K menu with the SuSE logo (You can tell how long I've used SuSE. I still spell it with a small 'u').

KSMarksPsych wrote:
... so we can either both write up separate pages or just make one page and have both sets of instructions (unless of course we're doing the same thing then we can collaborate on this).


Tell you what. Let's not get bogged down. I'll write up what I did and post it somewhere where you can see it. Then you could use that as a basis for a final document. You could either ask me to make some changes if/as necessary, or make some yourself as you see fit: and you could either post it to a final location yourself or ask me to do it. I have no problem with either, or indeed any, strategy. And you can either keep in touch with me, if you need to, via this thread or via my email address (attached to my account): again, you'll get no arguments from me either way.

Mr Flexible, that's me.

:)


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Message 6988 - Posted: 5 Jan 2008 | 13:57:55 UTC

Peter, email me through my helpers page.

http://boinc.berkeley.edu/help_vol.php?volid=7
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Message 6989 - Posted: 5 Jan 2008 | 17:53:31 UTC - in response to Message 6988.
Last modified: 5 Jan 2008 | 17:55:40 UTC

KSMarksPsych wrote:
Peter, email me through my helpers page.


Done that and also posted a pdf file to my website for you to look at/use/tear to shreds/whatever

Adding BOINC Manager to the K menu


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Message 6991 - Posted: 5 Jan 2008 | 23:11:18 UTC

Nice job Peter!

I took the .ico from my Vista install (the host triple boots), opened it in KolourPaint and saved it as a .pgn. So I have the smaller logo, the one like the BOINC favicon. I'll throw it up on the Wiki page once it gets created.

Since you took the time to create the content, I'll turn it into a Wiki page. I can't promise it'll get done today.

Can you put the images up on your website so I can get at them?

I'll put your content up as is and then put some stuff to discuss on the talk page.

Again, thanks for your help. I actually learned something new from your walkthough. I knew about the database for locate only updating once a day (asked Eric about it a few days ago) but I didn't know you could update the db manually (should have asked about that).

I love the Linux community :-)
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Message 6992 - Posted: 5 Jan 2008 | 23:41:30 UTC - in response to Message 6991.

KSMarksPsych wrote:
Nice job Peter!


Thank you!

KSMarksPsych wrote:
I took the .ico from my Vista install (the host triple boots), opened it in KolourPaint and saved it as a .pgn. So I have the smaller logo, the one like the BOINC favicon. I'll throw it up on the Wiki page once it gets created.


Good idea.

KSMarksPsych wrote:
Since you took the time to create the content, I'll turn it into a Wiki page. I can't promise it'll get done today.


It's actually harder than the bit I've done: so if you want any help, just shout.

KSMarksPsych wrote:
Can you put the images up on your website so I can get at them?


Done. They start at:

http://www.peredur.uklinux.net/KMenu1.png

and go up to:

http://www.peredur.uklinux.net/KMenu13.png

Not very explicit, I know, but I thought it would make the uploading process easier than trying to remember a load of explicit names.

KSMarksPsych wrote:
I'll put your content up as is and then put some stuff to discuss on the talk page.


Yep. That sounds like a plan. If you've downloaded the pdf, by the way, you might like to do so again as I've corrected a couple of typos and formatting mistakes.

KSMarksPsych wrote:
I knew about the database for locate only updating once a day ... but I didn't know you could update the db manually ...


Yes, but remember you must execute updatedb as root - otherwise it will fail to get into loads of areas of the file system.

KSMarksPsych wrote:
I love the Linux community :-)


Me too. Take a look at my latest blog posting for another reason why:

Peter's blog

Cheers


Peter

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Message 6993 - Posted: 6 Jan 2008 | 9:43:40 UTC

Thanks Peter.

I left you a comment :-) Isn't mplayer a great thing??

I got the images. I'll pull the new pdf too.

As expected I didn't get around to putting the content in the Wiki yet. I'll work on it this week. It'll take me a while because I'm not all that familiar with MediaWiki markup. The bulk of the Wiki type editing I've done is on Trac. But I should be able to pick it up fairly quickly.
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Message 6994 - Posted: 6 Jan 2008 | 17:24:38 UTC

I think some people shy away from wikis thinking that they are complicated, but that's not the case. (In fact the name comes from the Hawaiian "wiki-wiki", which means quickly -- you should be able to learn to edit a wiki quickly.)

So here are just a few short ideas I want to get across:

* It's easy. Just edit. Blank lines start a new paragraph.

(Okay, watch out for lines which start with a blank. They will be indented as example code or commands. That's good if that's what you intended, annoying if not.)

* wiki markup codes can be used for formatting, but you don't need to know wiki markup to enter content text. The wiki markup is supposed to be easier than HTML formatting, but I don't know if that's always the case. You can also use HTML for formatting (just not for links), so if you already know HTML then use that.

(So if you already know enough to write a blog, you can edit wiki pages.)

* wiki pages are intended to be collaborative. People who know stuff (Peter, Kathryn) can write what they know, and people who know more wiki markup can improve the formatting. Anybody can fix typos, or improve phrasing or grammar, or anything else. Everybody can help make the documentation better.

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Message 6995 - Posted: 6 Jan 2008 | 18:48:36 UTC
Last modified: 6 Jan 2008 | 18:49:11 UTC

Would have helped if I had told everyone that I have the text of the page up.

Adding BOINC Manager to the K Menu

The images need to be added in and the whole thing needs to be formatted.


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Message 6997 - Posted: 6 Jan 2008 | 20:44:49 UTC

I finally had some time to try this on my fedora 7 system. 5.10.29-1 errored and would not install due to not being able to find libc.so.6. I was able to find this file on my system, but not in the add/remove software app.

The 5.10.21-18 version installed with a warning but worked fine.

The gnome menu commands were a bit different for adding the manager but the instructions posted were enough to point me in the right direction to set it up.
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Message 7000 - Posted: 6 Jan 2008 | 23:28:05 UTC - in response to Message 6997.
Last modified: 6 Jan 2008 | 23:29:45 UTC

JKeck {pirate} wrote:
I finally had some time to try this on my fedora 7 system. 5.10.29-1 errored and would not install due to not being able to find libc.so.6.

Same here on Fedora Core 6. This is my first package built from source (on Fedora Core 4), so it's some progress, but something is wrong with the libraries.

The 5.10.21-18 version installed with a warning but worked fine.

This one seems to be stable. It's actually Berkeley binaries packed up in an rpm. What was the warning?

The Gnome menu commands were a bit different for adding the manager but the instructions posted were enough to point me in the right direction to set it up.

Are they different enough that there should be a separate wiki page for it, or close enough that one wiki page will do, with variations for KDE or Gnome?

(I don't use Gnome or KDE so I don't know anything about such things.)

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Message 7017 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 13:13:55 UTC - in response to Message 6995.

Hmm.

I thought I'd give you a hand and do some editing whilst on my lunch hour, but I was refused permission. It said I needed to confirm my email, but I'd done that yesterday I thought; and I am logged in ...

Cheers


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Message 7018 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 13:23:07 UTC - in response to Message 7000.

Are they different enough that there should be a separate wiki page for it, or close enough that one wiki page will do, with variations for KDE or Gnome?


Just my humble opinion, but I would nearly always argue for separating things that are even slightly different. Slight differences to experienced users can look like unsurmountable differences to a naive user.

Would it be possible, as a first step, to put up two pages with each one pointing to the other? E.g., the top of the KDE page might say something like, "If you use the GNOME desktop rather than KDE go to our page on Adding BOINC to the GNOME Menu" (with the last bit formatted as a link).

When there are two pages up, someone could look at them and decide whether it would be possible to extract any common sections into a common page that would point to the two specific pages.

I'll help with this all I can. I don't use GNOME, but there's nothing stopping me installing it and having a play, if it would help.

Cheers

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Message 7024 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 14:35:05 UTC - in response to Message 7017.

Peter Bradley wrote:
Hmm.
I thought I'd give you a hand and do some editing whilst on my lunch hour, but I was refused permission. It said I needed to confirm my email, but I'd done that yesterday I thought; and I am logged in ...

Your e-mail is indeed confirmed, and you have "able_seaman" status in the wiki, which grants you permission to write. (And there is currently no credit threshold for this, as there was before.) So I'm puzzled by this.

I would suggest that you logout and login again, but I now find that logging out is broken. I cannot log out. So it may be that you need to logout AND exit the browser, then login again, just until I sort this all out. Boogers.

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Message 7025 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 14:40:12 UTC - in response to Message 7018.

Peter Bradley wrote:
Just my humble opinion, but I would nearly always argue for separating things that are even slightly different. Slight differences to experienced users can look like unsurmountable differences to a naive user.

I agree with the spirit of this, but there are also arguments for keeping similar things together on one page, with appropriate distinctions when needed.

First, the person reading the page can see the similarities and fit things into context.

Second, a single page is easier to maintain. If you need to make changes you have less possibility of forgetting to update one of the several pages.

Also, shorter is better, so it could be that the common bits can go on one or a few short pages, linked together, but then the content which differs can then go on separate but smaller pages.



When there are two pages up, someone could look at them and decide whether it would be possible to extract any common sections into a common page that would point to the two specific pages.

Exactly. It's better to write it all down first, then edit and trim to make it clear and concise.

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Message 7028 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 16:16:29 UTC - in response to Message 7025.

Wormholio wrote:
[
Exactly. It's better to write it all down first, then edit and trim to make it clear and concise.


OK. Just let me know if you need any help from me.

On a different but related point, I wondered if you would be interested in providing some "traditional" help pages for users? They have some advantages for some users over a Wiki, namely their navigation, index and search facilities.

To give you an idea of what I mean I've knocked up a quick few starter pages (content shamelessly lifted from the Wiki and BOINC Web site). You can find them at:

BOINC v5 Help (example)

Let me know what you think. I have the tools for this, so it's easy for me to generate. The example took me an hour or two, that's all.

Cheers


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Message 7031 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 18:26:14 UTC - in response to Message 6985.

Peter Bradley wrote:
That's all it is. But it needs more than 2ms.


In fact it needs more than 5. I currently have it at 8ms. No problems so far, but then I don't reboot that often.

However, since this is such a small thing I think this may be the time to let it drop, with a recommendation to change sleep 1 to (say) sleep 10.

Cheers


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Message 7034 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 19:19:39 UTC - in response to Message 7031.

Peter Bradley wrote:

However, since this is such a small thing I think this may be the time to let it drop, with a recommendation to change sleep 1 to (say) sleep 10.

I will also do some testing myself to see what works. I'd like to make it as short as possible, since waiting 10 extra seconds during boot when you don't have to is annoying.

I am wondering why it would take so long just to get the PID of the process to verify that it launched, so I'll look a bit more at how that works too.

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Message 7035 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 19:50:47 UTC - in response to Message 7034.

Wormholio wrote:
I'd like to make it as short as possible, since waiting 10 extra seconds during boot when you don't have to is annoying.


Unless I'm very much mistaken it's ms (milliseconds), not seconds. Certainly the delay on my system is undetectable by a human.


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Message 7036 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 19:55:02 UTC - in response to Message 7035.

Peter Bradley wrote:
Unless I'm very much mistaken it's ms (milliseconds)


Oops! Nope. The man pages say it's seconds. That's very odd because my system waits nothing like that long when booting. The delay on booting is undetectable.

Hmm.


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Message 7037 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 20:05:07 UTC - in response to Message 7024.

Wormholio wrote:
I would suggest that you logout and login again, but I now find that logging out is broken. I cannot log out. So it may be that you need to logout AND exit the browser, then login again, just until I sort this all out. Boogers.


'Fraid not.

I've logged in and logged out and closed and re-opened the browser on two different machines now, using two different operating systems (same browser - FF), but still no joy, I'm afraid. I still get the message that I have to confirm my email addy.


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Message 7038 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 20:23:41 UTC - in response to Message 7037.

Peter Bradley wrote:
I've logged in and logged out and closed and re-opened the browser on two different machines now, using two different operating systems (same browser - FF), but still no joy, I'm afraid. I still get the message that I have to confirm my email addy.


And yet I see that your address has been confirmed. So I will also have to take a look at the code which grants you access to the wiki. Sigh.
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Message 7039 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 20:25:27 UTC - in response to Message 7028.
Last modified: 7 Jan 2008 | 20:27:04 UTC

Peter Bradley wrote:
To give you an idea of what I mean I've knocked up a quick few starter pages (content shamelessly lifted from the Wiki and BOINC Web site). You can find them at:
BOINC v5 Help (example)

Wow, that looks very much like the standard Windows help system, but via web pages. This might be very useful.

The proper place for a discussion of that is over at boinc/dev in the Documentation forum. May I post it there?

Would you join us over there?


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Message 7041 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 21:00:30 UTC - in response to Message 7039.

Wormholio wrote:
May I post it there?


Yes, of course

Would you join us over there?


On my way


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Message 7042 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 21:01:32 UTC

The gnome and KDE setup is different enough for separate pages. It may be possible to combine parts of it, probably using templates for the common parts would be the best way.

It was called a warning by fedora, but it was a daemon starting message. I guess the package was not expecting a response.
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Message 7043 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 21:16:00 UTC - in response to Message 7041.
Last modified: 7 Jan 2008 | 21:24:35 UTC

Peter Bradley wrote:
On my way


Oh dear.

I can't post over there because it says I don't have an account. I'll try to create one.

... later

Nope. Couldn't see any way to create an account. Trying to Subscribe just gave me the same message (No account).

On your point about it looking like Windows help - it is Windows help actually. It's a .chm file converted to HTML. It's a bit basic in the sense that there's very little choice in the way of skin for the frameset. The way the content looks is entirely up to the author (via stylesheets in the normal way).

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Message 7049 - Posted: 8 Jan 2008 | 0:04:28 UTC - in response to Message 7043.
Last modified: 8 Jan 2008 | 0:04:46 UTC

Peter Bradley wrote:
I can't post over there because it says I don't have an account. I'll try to create one.

... later

Nope. Couldn't see any way to create an account. Trying to Subscribe just gave me the same message (No account).

They hide the account creation link over there. Try this

On your point about it looking like Windows help - it is Windows help actually. It's a .chm file converted to HTML. It's a bit basic in the sense that there's very little choice in the way of skin for the frameset. The way the content looks is entirely up to the author (via stylesheets in the normal way).

Nice trick. One concern I have, after Nicolas tried it, is that it seems to require JavaScript to work. I'm not sure it's a good idea to make that a requirement to get help.
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Message 7050 - Posted: 8 Jan 2008 | 8:21:21 UTC - in response to Message 7049.

Wormholio wrote:
One concern I have, after Nicolas tried it, is that it seems to require JavaScript to work. I'm not sure it's a good idea to make that a requirement to get help.


I've sort of answered this in the other place (as UK parliamentarians have it). I agree it is a drawback, although in these days of AJAX I'm not sure how much of a drawback it is. But for this reason I would not suggest that this should be the only source of help. I'm certainly not suggesting replacing the Wiki but rather complementing it, for those users who might prefer this, familiar, format.

The noscript text could, of course, be altered to point to an alternative help system, such as the Wiki.

Cheers


Peter

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