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Profile Wormholio
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Message 6642 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 2:48:25 UTC
Last modified: 25 Oct 2007 | 3:07:07 UTC

Spam has taken another turn for the worse, to the point that now somone has set up a program which automatically creates accounts on BOINC projects and puts spam messages in the account profile.

One way to deal with this is to use a CAPTCHA to prove that the account was created by a human. I've been investigating one such system, called reCAPTCHA. The great thing about this is that solving these puzzles aids a project to digitize old books. You can read more about this at http://recaptcha.net/learnmore.html

As a simple test of using this system I set up a "mechanical turk" page, where you can solve reCAPTCHA tasks for BOINC credit.

You may see reCAPTCHA's appearing on other BOINC projects, either for account creation, to allow you to edit your profile, or perhaps even to post in the forums. It may be an annoying bit of extra effort, but at least you'll know you are also helping a good cause.

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Message 6643 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 10:43:58 UTC

Works fine for me.

Nifty!
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Message 6644 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 12:11:55 UTC
Last modified: 25 Oct 2007 | 12:26:20 UTC

Cool!

good idea.. i reckon for registration and/or profile updates... to do it each time you need to post in a forum would be a bit much i reckon....


cheers,

Paul.


edit - is it possible to get it to use occasionally use misspelled words? just thinking that if a bot could manage to read part of the word, it could make a fair guess as to the rest of it... but if it was mispelled, say letters swapped or extra letters, then it would make things that much harder. From playing with it, it uses alot of dictionary words (ie not just random numbers and letters) so a bot can use the same thing!


edit 2 - i wonder will we see some people suddenly soot up the rankings now!!
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Message 6645 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 12:29:52 UTC
Last modified: 25 Oct 2007 | 12:32:18 UTC

Works Fine here also ! Tried the Voice Code one sucessfully too. New challange/Question buttons also worked fine. :)

Might add "Not Case Sensitive" to make it easier as it isn't (For Now at Least hehe).
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Message 6646 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 12:44:50 UTC - in response to Message 6644.

Paul@home wrote:
is it possible to get it to use occasionally use misspelled words? just thinking that if a bot could manage to read part of the word, it could make a fair guess as to the rest of it... but if it was mispelled, say letters swapped or extra letters, then it would make things that much harder.


It's not possible for me to do anything to change the word selection. They are provided to us by the reCAPTCHA server. My own experience is that they have not just words, but word fragments, so that may help.

They give you two words. One they know, one they don't. The one they know is likely always a word. The other bit is something OCR couldn't figure out. And some of them even I can't figure out. But there is a button which lets you ask for a different pair.
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Message 6647 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 12:47:14 UTC - in response to Message 6645.

Gamma^Ray wrote:

Might add "Not Case Sensitive" to make it easier as it isn't (For Now at Least hehe).


I thought it would be case sensitive, but I guess they are happy just getting the word decoded and don't want the case difference to be a limiting factor.

Of all the CAPTCHA systems out there I liked this one the best just because it's a distributed system doing useful work, just like BOINC.

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Message 6648 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 13:04:56 UTC

Arg..Server bumped me for awhile...Like Paul said, I could misspell a letter in each word, And it still accepted it as valid. I do like it also though, Especially the vocal aspect. As at some of these places, Its almost impossible to get the wording correctly (Or you give up after a couple of attempts, Which isn't good for said website)hehe.
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Message 6649 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 13:07:58 UTC - in response to Message 6644.

[B^S wrote:
Paul@home]i wonder will we see some people suddenly soot up the rankings now!!

Sure we need now a separate Top turks page!
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Message 6650 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 13:19:55 UTC

Cap'n does have it listed seperately as far as credits goes. :)

I'm guessing that maybe the misspelled words that are still accepted as valid, Are the ones that weren't Digitalized yet ? If so, Will it then be seen as correct spelling if it was accepted but was really not spelled correctly ? Or will it take the majority entered as correct instead ?
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Message 6651 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 13:54:25 UTC - in response to Message 6650.
Last modified: 25 Oct 2007 | 14:03:54 UTC

(B^S) Gamma^Ray wrote:
Cap'n does have it listed seperately as far as credits goes. :)

Sure he does, and you too, even twice! (and with 100 pretty much so far ,-)

So, why is it noted twice, once as reCAPTCHA credit - Credit obtained from solving tasks on the Pirates@Home mechanical turk and second time as credit from the Mechanical Turk? Will we have another turk categories, like "Solving fragments of Captain Jack Sparrow's treasure map", "Trying out various grog receipes", "Finding out pirates on the Google map of Earth", etc.?

BTW, is it somehow possible to put "[B^S] Gamma^Ray" correctly into the quotation string?
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Message 6652 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 14:57:25 UTC - in response to Message 6651.



This brings to mind another question, How is this going to be looked upon as far as the Pirate Community as far as credits go ? As on the one hand, "By entering the words in the box, you are also helping to digitize texts that were written before the computer age." Are helping this task. But on the other hand, Some users will find it strickly as a means of someone getting credits only, Thus being considered a credit ho. So how does the Cap'n see it in general ? Is there a limit to entering the forms that should be part of the pirates code ?

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Message 6653 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 16:14:21 UTC

Limit would be ok, but then again this is like Stardust (but much easier!) ... people with more free time will sit there for hours, then will eventually get bored. It's for a good cause, the credit is nice, however if someone wants to do this for hours on end to get credit then the task is getting completed anyway. My two cents ... and thanks for the cool little side project Capt'n! Aaarrggh!
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Message 6654 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 16:46:47 UTC - in response to Message 6651.

Pepo wrote:
So, why is it noted twice, once as reCAPTCHA credit - Credit obtained from solving tasks on the Pirates@Home mechanical turk and second time as credit from the Mechanical Turk?

Because the bottom one was a modification of what was there before (time spent in the Brig, which we didn't actually track) and the upper one is what I wanted. Fixed. Thank you.

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Message 6655 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 16:47:54 UTC - in response to Message 6651.

Pepo wrote:

BTW, is it somehow possible to put "[B^S] Gamma^Ray" correctly into the quotation string?

No, you have to remove at least the trailing ], so I remove the whole [thing].

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Message 6656 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 17:39:15 UTC - in response to Message 6646.
Last modified: 25 Oct 2007 | 17:47:46 UTC

Wormholio wrote:
It's not possible for me to do anything to change the word selection. They are provided to us by the reCAPTCHA server.

So now we're waiting for the reCAPTCHA server to go down... That'll give some ruckus. :-)
It's not only words I just see. I have a time as well to fill in: 11:30.

There's a bug in the credit giving to captcha's Eric. It also gives credit for wrong captcha's. I just had one that I filled in wrong and it gave me a credit anyway.
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Message 6657 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 18:22:23 UTC - in response to Message 6656.
Last modified: 25 Oct 2007 | 18:26:58 UTC

Will this be rolled across all projects. If so, how will it affect BAM and other account managers?
____________


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Message 6658 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 18:42:32 UTC - in response to Message 6657.

bjango wrote:
Will this be rolled across all projects. If so, how will it affect BAM and other account managers?

I doubt other projects will set up a mechanical turk to do it over and over again. But all projects will be able to use reCAPTCHA to verify that an account was set up by a human, not a bot. The current thinking is that the reCAPTCHA would be part of e-mail verification, and that posting to forums or creating a profile, or maybe any sort of visibility on the project at all, would require a verified e-mail address. Or perhaps credit. Various scenarios are being discussed by the developers.

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Message 6659 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 18:47:25 UTC - in response to Message 6656.
Last modified: 25 Oct 2007 | 18:48:25 UTC

Stainless Cutlass wrote:

There's a bug in the credit giving to captcha's Eric. It also gives credit for wrong captcha's. I just had one that I filled in wrong and it gave me a credit anyway.


Did it say the solution was incorrect, or you know it was incorrect even though it said it was correct?

One of the words is known, one unkown. You only have to type the known word to get it correct. So if you can tell which one is the unknown (sometimes it's pretty obvious) you only need to get the other one correct. Still a task for a human, not a bot.

Whatever you enter for the unknown is compared to what others enter for the same unknown word (just like BOINC redundancy of workunits). The word is accepted for the book digitization project only when 2 (or more?) entries agree. But as far as the CAPTCHA is concerned, you just have to get one of the words right.

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Message 6660 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 19:40:24 UTC - in response to Message 6659.

Wormholio wrote:
Did it say the solution was incorrect, or you know it was incorrect even though it said it was correct?

I filled in the two words, and was just moved to the next screen to fill in two words again, without the option of cutting&pasting the code in between.

Can't remember if it said the entry was incorrect, all I know was that I had 8 credits when I had the wrong entry and 10 after I filled in the next correct entry. So the wrong entry that didn't give me the cut&paste of code option was considered worth a credit as well.
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Message 6661 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 19:51:54 UTC
Last modified: 25 Oct 2007 | 19:53:51 UTC

On my first look i thought this is plain credit cheating.
My second thought was: Wow i can still reach the 10.000 even if capt'n turned the workunits off.
Pondering the whole thing for a while leaves me still indecisive.

Fighting spambots is necessary.
Testing reCAPTCHA seems a good thing.
Giving treasure to those who do help testing as well.
Digitalizing worthy books, too.

Pirates Credits are more worthy than most others, as they are hard fought for.
Giving credits by hundreds for short effort seems unbalanced.
Participants who never computed WUs can now overtake those who helped the project for a long time.

After some further while of pondering i think it is not good to give normal pirate credits, still we should do this testing and reward it. Maybe with a smaller amount of credit per word pair, or with a dubloon for each 500 wordpairs. But with this high rate our treasured credits lose theit exclusiveness.

Still I, being a greedy dragon, will not surrender the gold once I have found it.
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Message 6662 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 20:35:00 UTC

Not sure if it's possible to ever have a totally fair system when it comes to effort vs. credit. Looking at some users here with 20,000+ Credits compared to how long its taken me (With my mainly one Pc) over the past year and a half just to get to 250 credits doesn't add up as far as the effort goes in my opinion. As I have to put in alot more time or effort just to get the occasional work units/credit with one Pc, Than someone with 10 or more. Simply based on the fact that with more pc's the chance that several of them will grab available work units is greater versus my one. Now thats the nature of BOINC and I'm fine with that, As the more pc's the better, And those pc's do obtain and do the work, So should get the credit. But still, My 250 doesn't look like I try very hard when actually, I have.

So adding this sideline task for credits is good, As far as the very users with 10 or 100 pc's that can just turn them on and let them do the work, Might not have the time to sit there and type out each M/T question box for one credit each and thus doesn't, While say someone with the one pc does have the time and decides to participate in the task and does get the credit still seems like fair play, As now even the user with one pc is equal as far as effort goes to anyone with 100, As either way, Only each user can sit there and type out the search boxes one at a time.

Still, It does make my year and a half of crunchin here and there as best as I can for 250 credits seem off, As for maybe 15 minutes give or take, I made 100 more with M/T, Seem off too. But like I originally said, I don't think its possible for it all to ever be totally fair or even so to speak.

That said, I might would agree that dropping the credit to .50 percent of a work unit as opposed to a full credit per M/T box entry, Might make it more even if possible ?

Just my opinions
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Message 6663 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 20:36:52 UTC - in response to Message 6660.

Stainless Cutlass wrote:

I filled in the two words, and was just moved to the next screen to fill in two words again, without the option of cutting&pasting the code in between.

That sounds like the non-JavaScript interface. Is the cut&paste step actually required? Did you turn on JavaScript mid-step? Most importantly, can you reproduce it?

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Message 6664 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 20:46:59 UTC - in response to Message 6661.

Kalessin wrote:
Maybe with a smaller amount of credit per word pair, or with a dubloon for each 500 wordpairs. But with this high rate our treasured credits lose theit exclusiveness.


I picked 1 cobblestone just as an arbitrary unit; and because it's the target for one WU of starboard (on my reference machine - I know it can be less for others).

And it should also give you the RAC to become an able_seaman. Solve one CAPTCHA and you can post to the wiki? That sounded reasonable. (But I think I have to make some adjustments for the captcha credits to be counted in RAC.)

It made sense to me to award credit for work done, by either machine or human.
If the award is too high, or too low, then what is the appropriate price? Perhaps we should start high (like an iPhone) and then drop the price to get those who didn't jump in immediately. Only in reverse (high -vs- low) since we are buying, not selling. You get the idea.

As for the worth of Pirates@Home credit, I agree it's more valuable. I'd estimate that each Pirates credit is worth 8 times a normal BOINC credit. That's why some call 'em "pieces of eight!" But I don't know if we'll get the team and stats sites to agree to that factor. :-)

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Message 6665 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 20:49:46 UTC
Last modified: 25 Oct 2007 | 20:51:01 UTC

You must now have a verified e-mail address to create or edit a profile. This was dead easy to add. Of course a bot can do that exchange, but if we then add a reCAPTCHA to the verification process only a human can verify the address.

When we got spammed I disabled account creation. I'll now turn it back on, and we'll see what happens.

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Message 6666 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 21:03:06 UTC - in response to Message 6663.
Last modified: 25 Oct 2007 | 21:04:15 UTC

Wormholio wrote:
Stainless Cutlass wrote:

I filled in the two words, and was just moved to the next screen to fill in two words again, without the option of cutting&pasting the code in between.

That sounds like the non-JavaScript interface. Is the cut&paste step actually required? Did you turn on JavaScript mid-step? Most importantly, can you reproduce it?

JS is on all the time... well, if I tell Noscript to run it at least. But since the Pirates page is already allowed, all sub-pages work as well. (Whereas on CNN.com, if I allow JS to run, I don't see news, but do see videos. When I disallow JS to run there, I see news but don't see videos. Go figure. ;-))

The C&P step is required to get credit. Or at least, when you have filled in the words correctly and just hit submit without C&P'ing, you don't get credit.

And yes, I just managed to reproduce it by filling in one word that was asked (tractor), but with a typo in it (tracktor), the other word was a completely different one than the one given (raven, but I used asking).
Perhaps that the reCAPTCHA site thinks those words with a typo in them are correct enough as well. For when filling in two words that are completely different than asked, you get to begin anew immediately and no credit is given.
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Message 6667 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 21:11:30 UTC - in response to Message 6666.

Stainless Cutlass wrote:

The C&P step is required to get credit. Or at least, when you have filled in the words correctly and just hit submit without C&P'ing, you don't get credit.

When I have JavaScript on the cut & paste step is not only not required, it's not even shown. In fact, I added a little snip to put the cursor in the entry box, so that you can zip through them without even touching the mouse.


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Message 6668 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 22:04:54 UTC

I had to allow noscript for recaptcha, then the copy and paste window did not show again.
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Message 6669 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 22:18:52 UTC - in response to Message 6659.
Last modified: 25 Oct 2007 | 22:19:31 UTC

Wormholio wrote:
Stainless Cutlass wrote:

There's a bug in the credit giving to captcha's Eric. It also gives credit for wrong captcha's. I just had one that I filled in wrong and it gave me a credit anyway.


Did it say the solution was incorrect, or you know it was incorrect even though it said it was correct?

One of the words is known, one unkown. You only have to type the known word to get it correct. [...]

I've made a set of attempts (starting with approx. 34 catched turkeys on my account):
- approx. 10 times one wrong or missing or added character in the first word. Every answer was claimed green correct. During the first 3-4 answers my credit was always incremented. I was lazy to check the increments each time then, but finally it was (only) 40.
- approx. 4-5 times one wrong or missing character in the second word. Green each time.
- approx. 10-15 times one wrong or missing character in both words. Green each time.
Finally some 1+2 wrong characters, worth one red "Error: incorrect solution." response.
My final credit was 51 catched turkeys, although I was expecting over 60. Why?

Does someone have the mood to try something similar again, being not as lazy as I was to check the catched turkeys after each solved recaptcha?
____________
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Message 6670 - Posted: 25 Oct 2007 | 22:38:15 UTC - in response to Message 6664.

Wormholio wrote:
And it should also give you the RAC to become an able_seaman. Solve one CAPTCHA and you can post to the wiki? That sounded reasonable. (But I think I have to make some adjustments for the captcha credits to be counted in RAC.)


Seems the credits don't count for the teams as well!

Wormholio wrote:
It made sense to me to award credit for work done, by either machine or human.
If the award is too high, or too low, then what is the appropriate price? Perhaps we should start high (like an iPhone) and then drop the price to get those who didn't jump in immediately. Only in reverse (high -vs- low) since we are buying, not selling. You get the idea.


Yes, but its really very high. A little corrupting to the efforts done the years before.

Wormholio wrote:
As for the worth of Pirates@Home credit, I agree it's more valuable. I'd estimate that each Pirates credit is worth 8 times a normal BOINC credit. That's why some call 'em "pieces of eight!" But I don't know if we'll get the team and stats sites to agree to that factor. :-)


I always judge them a hundreds worth. So if i complete my 10,000 theyre worth a million to me!
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Message 6671 - Posted: 26 Oct 2007 | 4:09:53 UTC
Last modified: 26 Oct 2007 | 4:26:17 UTC

I've found that this isn't 100% reliable. Some words I deliberately mistyped and received credit anyway. It seems to let me misspell the first word but the second word is where it does want it correct, at least on my testing so far.

Some of the word generations are tricky and you do have to take a close look but that flaw where it occaisionally accepts a misspelled word anyway defeats the effectiveness of the system.

edit: I take that back, I put in words that weren't close to what was displayed, even longer in some cases and it accepted them on both the first and second word.

This reCaptcha thing needs alot of work before being put out in the real world, that's for sure. My testing so far shows it to be hit & miss for effectiveness with it leaning more towards a miss.


____________

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Message 6672 - Posted: 26 Oct 2007 | 4:16:32 UTC
Last modified: 26 Oct 2007 | 4:19:30 UTC

I played with it for a bit. Tried the audio, and ran into a problem. When I tried it with the default QuickTime, I only got a shortened version, with 3 to 5 numbers before it cut off. Clicked the "Can't hear the sound?" link so it went through RealPlayer, and the entire clip played and I could get all the numbers.

Using Firefox 2.0.0.7, Windows XP Media Center, QuickTime 7.1.5, RealPlayer 10.5.

MJ
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Hail, flowing fount of sentiment!
Hail, all hail, divine emollient!

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Message 6673 - Posted: 26 Oct 2007 | 11:22:30 UTC - in response to Message 6670.

Kalessin wrote:
Seems the credits don't count for the teams as well!

I got 200 cobblestones yesterday, my team only 54, so these credits definitely don't count for the teams.

With reCAPTCHA task you can get one cobblestone within 10 seconds. There's no computer which crunches a Starboard workunit in that time. So one cobblestone is way too high.

I think credits earned with reCAPTCHA should be counted in seperate stats. You only need time to do them. With Starboard you need a bit of luck (it is possible to get as much WUs on one computer as on one hundred, if you have luck).
Another way is to set a limit, e.g. only 2 tasks per hour, which you get credit for.

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Message 6674 - Posted: 26 Oct 2007 | 12:44:59 UTC

Okay, credit is now also given to your team. But the reward has gone down to 1/8 cobblestone for each correct solution. Comments?

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Message 6675 - Posted: 26 Oct 2007 | 12:52:51 UTC - in response to Message 6674.



The text at the top of the page still says that a correct answer gives 1 cobblestone.
____________

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Message 6676 - Posted: 26 Oct 2007 | 13:10:40 UTC - in response to Message 6674.

Wormholio wrote:
...the reward has gone down to 1/8 cobblestone for each correct solution...

Sounds as a serious attempt for the first aproximation.
From my testing, it seems that up to one character error is allowed in each of the two words. This means that a) up to two character can be mistyped in the response, in order to be still valid, b) reCaptcha server must already know the text for both of the two supplied words, so then - how about one word promised to be the unknown scanned text?
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Message 6677 - Posted: 26 Oct 2007 | 13:44:28 UTC - in response to Message 6675.

Ian Burns wrote:
The text at the top of the page still says that a correct answer gives 1 cobblestone.


Arr, we be pirates. Ye can ne'r trust what we say.

(But I've fixed it. Thanks.)
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Message 6678 - Posted: 26 Oct 2007 | 13:48:55 UTC - in response to Message 6676.
Last modified: 26 Oct 2007 | 13:49:14 UTC

Pepo wrote:
From my testing, it seems that up to one character error is allowed in each of the two words....

I wonder if it matters which character it is that is uncertain. In most of the cases where I've been stumped, it's been between an 'e' and an 'o', because of the line through the word (which is there to make it harder for a machine to separate the letters). Maybe they accept either e or o, and then rely on matching the rest of the letters to an existing word.

In fact, maybe they don't care about matching every letter, as long as what you type can be matched "roughly" to only one word in their master dictionary. That's enough for digitizing the old book.

On the other hand, the important thing for us is that a machine is not able to even get close to the right word. Or at least not close enough.


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Message 6679 - Posted: 26 Oct 2007 | 13:58:27 UTC - in response to Message 6678.

Wormholio wrote:
Pepo wrote:
From my testing, it seems that up to one character error is allowed in each of the two words....

I wonder if it matters which character it is that is uncertain. In most of the cases where I've been stumped, it's been between an 'e' and an 'o', because of the line through the word (which is there to make it harder for a machine to separate the letters). Maybe they accept either e or o, and then rely on matching the rest of the letters to an existing word.

I've tried every (not really, but many, not only *[oecab]* etc.) possible characters (to be missing, added or mistyped) so far, numbers, dashes, dollar signs replaced by 'S', colon, ... anything more seen? My experioence says - it maters only the number of differences in a word.

Wormholio wrote:
On the other hand, the important thing for us is that a machine is not able to even get close to the right word. Or at least not close enough.

"We have a hope".
Yesterday I've seen one 'anti-Captcha' web page (was the link from Nicolas? I've forgot the address in the mean time), maybe the folks will make some effort to crack the characters...
____________
Peter .-)

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Message 6680 - Posted: 26 Oct 2007 | 14:16:39 UTC

In the past few days since this became active, we have solved nearly 22,000 correct reCAPTCHA tasks.

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Message 6681 - Posted: 26 Oct 2007 | 14:20:35 UTC

I agree credit is based on time and effort but you also have to take into consideration a faster more powerful computer gets credits faster, and on that point the credit for this project should be worked out taking into consideration the number of operations per second the human brain can calculate.
____________

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Message 6682 - Posted: 26 Oct 2007 | 16:52:35 UTC
Last modified: 26 Oct 2007 | 16:53:51 UTC

I think that 0.125 point per task is not worth my time, also I think that my time is much more worth than my computer time. So 1 point per task is ok for me - 0.125 - not!

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Message 6683 - Posted: 26 Oct 2007 | 18:20:38 UTC

noticed the credit change today ... I think the task is simple, and the 1 credit per task was too high. It's taken me a long time to get the credit I have also, so the credit change was appropriate and I agree with other comments above about credit/effort/time. However, I spent an hour typing yesterday, and only 5 minutes today!! So, .125 is now worth a lot of work for all that typing. Double-however, I like that credit amount ... and a difficult choice for the Capt'n most certainly.

When I started I thought of it like a typing test, so I only got a few incorrect that I noticed. Then I saw a big factor for incorrect was missing a special character or number - those are the ones I get wrong when not being careful.
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Message 6684 - Posted: 26 Oct 2007 | 18:38:00 UTC

Just courious, Has anyone had the thought that giving any credit for something done manually by a user, Is maybe going against the very core of the BOINC idea and or purpose basically ? Dont get me wrong, I like the project at hand, And getting some gold is nice for it, But then again, I keep thinking that if its ok to give users credit based on other things than actual Coblestones and or actual Pc Crunchin', Then whats to stop other new projects in the future, From popping up to also take advantage of the give users credit, For whats basically just data entry ?

Seems that one could convert data input to dollars with the many get rich quick guys on the internet, If all they have to do in return to the users, Is give "Credit" which actually costs them nothing. Or even say what if a valid project offers 100, or 1000 credits for someone to type up a essay or whatever for that project ? Or person who creates the best Logo for a project gets 1000 credits etc. Maybe Mods will be paid 200 credits a month for modding ?

Not sure where it might lead to if anywhere, And I was just courious if anyone else has thought of that, Or is it just me ?
____________

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Message 6685 - Posted: 26 Oct 2007 | 20:35:31 UTC

Here you can see those with too much time: http://stats.free-dc.org/new/allusers.php?proj=pir&orderby=d0&direction=DESC

btw: How long will the test continue?

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Message 6686 - Posted: 26 Oct 2007 | 22:41:00 UTC

Good to be #1 for a day!

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Message 6687 - Posted: 27 Oct 2007 | 0:53:39 UTC - in response to Message 6684.

B^S Gamma^Ray wrote:
Seems that one could convert data input to dollars with the many get rich quick guys on the internet

That's already been done. Amazon Mechanical Turk.
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Message 6688 - Posted: 27 Oct 2007 | 1:50:38 UTC

Yea, I'm a member on that one also. But so far I haven't gotten any BOINC credits for it yet ? Maybe its only a matter of time for that one. :?
____________

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Message 6690 - Posted: 27 Oct 2007 | 16:24:34 UTC

HI

I've just been cheecking out the reCaptcha gizzmo and after a while I noticed that more often than not it fails to detect misstakes. In fact you can quite often get away with some very obvious delibrate miss entries.

Maybe I am missing something here but it seems to me that this would be a bit of a weakness to say the least.
____________
m4rtyn
**************************** ***************************

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Message 6691 - Posted: 27 Oct 2007 | 17:47:52 UTC - in response to Message 6690.

M4rtyn wrote:
something here but it seems to me that this would be a bit of a weakness to say the least.

The words are given out to multiple people, in a way just as BOINC gives out work to multiple people. Or at least, that happens on most projects. ;-)

See http://recaptcha.net/learnmore.html for more information.
Each new word that cannot be read correctly by OCR is given to a user in conjunction with another word for which the answer is already known. The user is then asked to read both words. If they solve the one for which the answer is known, the system assumes their answer is correct for the new one. The system then gives the new image to a number of other people to determine, with higher confidence, whether the original answer was correct.
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Message 6692 - Posted: 27 Oct 2007 | 18:40:31 UTC - in response to Message 6684.
Last modified: 27 Oct 2007 | 18:41:00 UTC

Gamma^Ray wrote:
Just courious, Has anyone had the thought that giving any credit for something done manually by a user, Is maybe going against the very core of the BOINC idea and or purpose basically? ...


I think that's an important point to discuss here. There are some similarities between the reCAPTCHA project and most BOINC projects, but the reCAPTCHA work is done by a human rather than a machine. Is that an important distinction?

Some folks probably do want to make the distinctions, so I made sure that we are tracking the credit given via the Mechanical Turk. I just adjusted the Certificate of Computation so that it corectly states the credit given just for computation and a separate total for credit awarded via the Mechanical Turk.

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Message 6694 - Posted: 27 Oct 2007 | 21:56:05 UTC

It's a grey area for me, As on the one hand its nice to get credit for places like Pirates, Thats hard to get credit for normally, But on the other hand it just seems to me as a different entity all together. Kinda like when the Original Seti with from their 1 credit for 1 work unit plan, Decided to switch to the current one of computer cycles, It was to help (Supposedly) made things more even for users Pc Crunchin wise. Thus they decided to not add the old Seti Credits to the BOINC ones as to start off new with everyone starting at zero, And no one having the old credits added as they were made with different rules (1 wu to 1 credit).

So I kinda feel that M/T is a good idea, But maybe the credits shouldn't be added with the regular BOINC credits, But maybe seperate such as a Dc type project or something. And if more and more of these types of mini-projects pop up then a seperate stat could be added to the BOINC stats site call Mechanical Turk's Project or something that lists the credits seperately, But still is shown as to how much someone has helped.

Any ideas of what the original designers of BOINC think of credits gotten like this ? Just courious .
____________

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Message 6695 - Posted: 27 Oct 2007 | 22:03:54 UTC - in response to Message 6692.

Wormholio wrote:
I think that's an important point to discuss here. There are some similarities between the reCAPTCHA project and most BOINC projects, but the reCAPTCHA work is done by a human rather than a machine. Is that an important distinction?

Strictly spoken, the reCAPTCHAs aren't a part of BOINC, so one shouldn't get BOINC credits for them. If you want to give credits for them, name them CAPTCHA credits, give them a separate table in your database and stats.

My two florins.
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Message 6696 - Posted: 27 Oct 2007 | 23:03:59 UTC - in response to Message 6695.

Stainless Cutlass wrote:
Wormholio wrote:
I think that's an important point to discuss here. There are some similarities between the reCAPTCHA project and most BOINC projects, but the reCAPTCHA work is done by a human rather than a machine. Is that an important distinction?

Strictly spoken, the reCAPTCHAs aren't a part of BOINC, so one shouldn't get BOINC credits for them. If you want to give credits for them, name them CAPTCHA credits, give them a separate table in your database and stats.

My two florins.

I agree. BOINC stands for Berkeley Open Infrastructure for Network Computing.
Credits aren't a bad thing, but I think they should be seperated from the credits gained by computations, too, as it's done in the certificate.

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Message 6697 - Posted: 29 Oct 2007 | 3:02:10 UTC

Do i get TEAM points for solving reCAPTCHA ?

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Message 6698 - Posted: 29 Oct 2007 | 22:25:26 UTC - in response to Message 6697.


It looks that not at this moment.
____________

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Message 6699 - Posted: 30 Oct 2007 | 1:37:45 UTC - in response to Message 6697.
Last modified: 30 Oct 2007 | 1:38:12 UTC

Jedi Master GABRIEL wrote:
Do i get TEAM points for solving reCAPTCHA ?

Yes, your team should also get credit. But keep in mind that the team total page is cached and only updated hourly.

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Message 6701 - Posted: 30 Oct 2007 | 10:40:16 UTC

There are seperate top participant stats for the mechanical turk now. Is it possible to add seperate stats for real computation credits, too?

IMHO, the best solution would be exporting seperate stats to the stats pages with the computation credits, cuz this is really BOINC. Those, who consider the credits gained by solving reCAPTCHA as worthful as the computation credits would still have the opportunity to look at the combined stats here.

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Message 6703 - Posted: 30 Oct 2007 | 15:25:52 UTC - in response to Message 6701.



What about cheating the credit system, is that real computation too?

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Message 6704 - Posted: 30 Oct 2007 | 16:19:07 UTC - in response to Message 6703.

Woody Woodpecker wrote:


What about cheating the credit system, is that real computation too?


No, but finding a way to game the system and reporting it so that we know about the problem is certainly worth some reward.

Have you found a hole in the system, or are you just very fast and patient with the reCAPTCHAs?

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Message 6705 - Posted: 30 Oct 2007 | 16:47:11 UTC - in response to Message 6704.

Wormholio wrote:
Woody Woodpecker wrote:


What about cheating the credit system, is that real computation too?


No, but finding a way to game the system and reporting it so that we know about the problem is certainly worth some reward.

Have you found a hole in the system, or are you just very fast and patient with the reCAPTCHAs?


I ment those "optimized clients" as a way to cheat some BOINC projects credit systems.
I think reCAPTCHAs cannot be cheated. All you need is quick fingers and some spare time...

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Message 6706 - Posted: 30 Oct 2007 | 17:06:12 UTC - in response to Message 6705.
Last modified: 30 Oct 2007 | 17:06:32 UTC

Woody Woodpecker wrote:
I ment those "optimized clients" as a way to cheat some BOINC projects credit systems.

Ah, yes. We don't allow those here, and I have shared instructions with the other projects on how they can restrict their use. But it is up to each project to decide what to do.


I think reCAPTCHAs cannot be cheated. All you need is quick fingers and some spare time...

You seem to have both. Congratulations on your commanding lead.
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Message 6708 - Posted: 30 Oct 2007 | 20:49:03 UTC - in response to Message 6699.

Do i get TEAM points for solving reCAPTCHA ?

Yes, your team should also get credit. But keep in mind that the team total page is cached and only updated hourly.


This is not true, becouse yesterday I earn 15 credit point and my team not eaven one!
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Message 6709 - Posted: 31 Oct 2007 | 0:51:19 UTC

Same here, after 3 days still no points for my Team????

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Message 6710 - Posted: 31 Oct 2007 | 1:33:16 UTC

Ah, there was indeed a bug in awarding team credit. It should now be fixed.

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Message 6717 - Posted: 1 Nov 2007 | 20:49:13 UTC - in response to Message 6710.

Ah, there was indeed a bug in awarding team credit. It should now be fixed.


But it isn't.
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Message 6733 - Posted: 5 Nov 2007 | 16:08:09 UTC - in response to Message 6717.

AL ADIM wrote:
Wormholio wrote:
Ah, there was indeed a bug in awarding team credit. It should now be fixed.


But it isn't.


Well, I fixed it, and then I thought about it some more, and decided to not fix it.

I'm now seriously thinking of not awarding BOINC credit for the Mechanical Turk. We would still track work done on the Mechanical Turk, but entirely separate from BOINC credit. So far I've heard voices in favor of that, but nobody opposed. Speak now if you are in favor of BOINC credit for M/T work.

Then the question is what to do with credit already awarded. Since we have the separate total I could take it away from the BOINC credit, for a clean separation, or I can just leave it as it is but not award future credit.

I realized that the first option would not work if we also awarded credit to teams, so I decided not to award team credit, pending a decision.

What think the crew?

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Message 6734 - Posted: 5 Nov 2007 | 16:16:20 UTC - in response to Message 6733.

Wormholio wrote:
Then the question is what to do with credit already awarded.

Store it for the possibility to buy Pirates mugs, T-shirts, trousers, underwear, rear-view mirror gadgets, bike adornments, pencils/pens, note blocks, ashtrays, car- or window stickers, coats, recordable CDs/DVDs, socks, boots/shoes, towels, curtains, bed covers etc. etc. :-)
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Message 6735 - Posted: 5 Nov 2007 | 16:27:08 UTC - in response to Message 6733.

Wormholio wrote:
I'm now seriously thinking of not awarding BOINC credit for the Mechanical Turk. We would still track work done on the Mechanical Turk, but entirely separate from BOINC credit. So far I've heard voices in favor of that, but nobody opposed. Speak now if you are in favor of BOINC credit for M/T work.

Actually I'm against counting Mech Turk credit towards Boinc credit. As we did the testing few days ago - well, OK. But to see someone earning thousands of Boinc credits without the need to work hard on a pirate ship :-)

Do you remember, some half year ago, the process of awarding someone who let others know about Boinc? IMO Mech Turk credit could match this category, couldn't it?

Then the question is what to do with credit already awarded. Since we have the separate total I could take it away from the BOINC credit, for a clean separation, or I can just leave it as it is but not award future credit.

I realized that the first option would not work if we also awarded credit to teams, so I decided not to award team credit, pending a decision.

Conforming to my previous thoughts - maybe not remove, at most modify also the older earnings (made while the multiplicator was 1.0) to some recent multiplicator. But nonone was warned back then...
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Message 6736 - Posted: 5 Nov 2007 | 17:12:19 UTC

We all know some see BOINC credits as a very serious matter (the most surprising aspect of distributed computing for me) so it seems you'll take heat no matter what you decide now :)
Me thinks you should leave the credits earned for this as is, but discontinue to award BOINC credits in the future and keep track of work done with Turk in the separate database only.
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Message 6737 - Posted: 5 Nov 2007 | 17:26:44 UTC

I definately think the previously granted credit should not be changed.

I am less sure about future credit. I am leaning towards continuing to grant credit for using the turk. It is a contribution to the project, just not in the normal manner. There has been talk in the past about granting credit for contributions other than simple crunching. Testing these aspects does seem like a job for the pirate crew.
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Message 6739 - Posted: 5 Nov 2007 | 17:50:55 UTC - in response to Message 6696.

pschoefer wrote:

I agree. BOINC stands for Berkeley Open Infrastructure for Network Computing.
Credits aren't a bad thing, but I think they should be seperated from the credits gained by computations, too, as it's done in the certificate.

Correct. For "human-computing", we will have Berkeley Open System for Skill Aggregation (Bossa).
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Message 6740 - Posted: 5 Nov 2007 | 18:46:57 UTC
Last modified: 5 Nov 2007 | 18:56:19 UTC

While I am normally not in favor of awarding credits for work outside of applications (e.g., for recruiting more crunchers, etc.), I do not believe that this falls in that class of contributions. Since the actual task of digitizing books is a kind of distributed computing, then regular BOINC credit seems appropriate. The real question lies not in the method of granting credit (at least IMHO), but in the amount of credit to award. Is the 0.1 current value really comparable to 10 seconds of computer time for one of the regular Pirates@home apps (assuming some sort of standardized reference computer)?


Edit:
From my own computer list, the comparable value for 10 seconds of work from the standard applications runs mostly between .02 and .04 credits. Given the extra effort involved in 'active' participation, a value of between .05 and .1 seems reasonable.

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Message 6741 - Posted: 5 Nov 2007 | 18:57:30 UTC

4567,8 M/T credits is enough for me so I quit now.
If you want to remove M/T credits from BOINC credits, I don't complain.
Anyway they are just credits, not my bank balance!

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Message 6743 - Posted: 5 Nov 2007 | 19:15:43 UTC - in response to Message 6741.

Woody Woodpecker wrote:
4567,8 M/T credits is enough for me so I quit now.

You must be getting cramped fingers.

I lowered the reward for each reCAPTCHA to 0.1 to see who would continue. You did, for a while. Would you do more if I raised the reward?

I also made it possible to easily change the reward. One could imagine it varying depending on time of day (which is not so meaningful for a world-wide project), but I'm not sure how this would be most useful.

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Message 6744 - Posted: 5 Nov 2007 | 19:27:29 UTC - in response to Message 6741.
Last modified: 5 Nov 2007 | 19:29:26 UTC

Woody Woodpecker wrote:
4567,8 M/T credits is enough for me so I quit now...

You had some pretty high scoring days, I have to sleep once and a while so I knew I’d never catch you LOL.

Nice work!

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Message 6745 - Posted: 5 Nov 2007 | 19:35:42 UTC - in response to Message 6744.

DrBob @ SETI.USA wrote:
Woody Woodpecker wrote:
4567,8 M/T credits is enough for me so I quit now...

You had some pretty high scoring days, I have to sleep once and a while so I knew I’d never catch you LOL.

Nice work!



Thanks, but you have three gold dubloons and I have none :-)

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Message 6746 - Posted: 5 Nov 2007 | 19:51:14 UTC - in response to Message 6743.

Wormholio wrote:
Woody Woodpecker wrote:
4567,8 M/T credits is enough for me so I quit now.

You must be getting cramped fingers.

I lowered the reward for each reCAPTCHA to 0.1 to see who would continue. You did, for a while. Would you do more if I raised the reward?

I also made it possible to easily change the reward. One could imagine it varying depending on time of day (which is not so meaningful for a world-wide project), but I'm not sure how this would be most useful.


No cramped fingers but for some reason they are bloated.
I think I'm not really interested in separated M/T credits even if the reward is higher than 0,1


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Message 6747 - Posted: 5 Nov 2007 | 20:11:25 UTC - in response to Message 6733.

Wormholio wrote:
I'm now seriously thinking of not awarding BOINC credit for the Mechanical Turk. We would still track work done on the Mechanical Turk, but entirely separate from BOINC credit. So far I've heard voices in favor of that, but nobody opposed. Speak now if you are in favor of BOINC credit for M/T work.

I'm definitely against, as I said before.

Wormholio wrote:
Then the question is what to do with credit already awarded. Since we have the separate total I could take it away from the BOINC credit, for a clean separation, or I can just leave it as it is but not award future credit.

I realized that the first option would not work if we also awarded credit to teams, so I decided not to award team credit, pending a decision.

I'd like to see the M/T credits subtracted from totals (one fifth of my total credits I got via M/T, but I consider them worthless).

I see the problem with the team credits, but isn't it possible to subtract the team outputs during the time, when there wasn't any starboard work?

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Message 6748 - Posted: 5 Nov 2007 | 20:20:13 UTC - in response to Message 6745.

Woody Woodpecker wrote:
you have three gold dubloons and I have none :-)
Dubloons are awarded for being chosen Pirate of the day, so you need to create a profile here to start collecting them.

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Message 6749 - Posted: 5 Nov 2007 | 20:21:35 UTC - in response to Message 6745.

Woody Woodpecker wrote:

Thanks, but you have three gold dubloons and I have none :-)

You can fix that by creating a profile, which would make you eligible for UOTD.
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Message 6750 - Posted: 5 Nov 2007 | 20:25:23 UTC - in response to Message 6749.

Wormholio wrote:
Woody Woodpecker wrote:

Thanks, but you have three gold dubloons and I have none :-)

You can fix that by creating a profile, which would make you eligible for UOTD.


Stupid me, I really forgot my profile :-)

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Message 6751 - Posted: 5 Nov 2007 | 20:51:37 UTC

As a dragon me would never ever surrender any of the gold me gained with brave robbery or piracy!
But the turk gold is still stained by the suspicion of cheating. Ok cheating is quite obvious an honorable thing for pirates to do, but not among ourselves. So me might keep my sharp claws to meself if Capt'n sneaks into me lair to rob back the fake gold.
Perhaps he lets flow the real gold again for while so that me could regain my 10.000 milestone, this time truly and only through brave screensaver robbery!
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Message 6757 - Posted: 8 Nov 2007 | 10:12:57 UTC
Last modified: 8 Nov 2007 | 10:22:49 UTC

If you're not going to recognise MT credits as BOINC credits and export them to teams then delete/deduct them from individuals totals, don't bottle out halfway.

I've got nothing against awarding MT credits as BOINC credits - if someone wants to sit there and punch keys for credit - go for it. It's not as though they are manipulating benchmarks so it's hardly cheating.

EDIT: typo
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Message 6764 - Posted: 9 Nov 2007 | 4:02:21 UTC
Last modified: 9 Nov 2007 | 4:17:58 UTC

Hi
Is there a reason why MT credit is not being passed on to my team. Over the last week I have had around 20 - 25 credits added to my account but none have gone to my team(UK Boinc Team)

Edit: Just found this

Then the question is what to do with credit already awarded. Since we have the separate total I could take it away from the BOINC credit, for a clean separation, or I can just leave it as it is but not award future credit.

I realized that the first option would not work if we also awarded credit to teams, so I decided not to award team credit, pending a decision.


If this is the reason then you should really change the MT web page to reflect this at the momment after each compleated task it claims your team has recieved 0.1 credits.

For what it's worth I believe it would be wrong to take back or alter in any way credits ALREADY EARNED through MT

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Message 6766 - Posted: 9 Nov 2007 | 12:40:28 UTC - in response to Message 6764.

M4rtyn wrote:

If this is the reason then you should really change the MT web page to reflect this at the momment after each compleated task it claims your team has recieved 0.1 credits.


Good point. Thanks. That was a debugging message, and I've now removed it. Credit from the mechanical turk is only awarded to the individual, not their team.


For what it's worth I believe it would be wrong to take back or alter in any way credits ALREADY EARNED through MT

I think you are right, so I won't undo what has already been done. What I still need to decide is whether to continue giving BOINC credit for the mechanical turk, or just add to a separate count.

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Message 6767 - Posted: 9 Nov 2007 | 13:01:58 UTC - in response to Message 6766.

Wormholio wrote:
What I still need to decide is whether to continue giving BOINC credit for the mechanical turk, or just add to a separate count.

I suggest a split. .
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Message 6775 - Posted: 10 Nov 2007 | 3:09:18 UTC

My thought would be to not continue to give BOINC credit for it, A seperate total for Pirates or something maybe, But not for BOINC.
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Message 6776 - Posted: 10 Nov 2007 | 10:19:29 UTC

HI

I suspect that the decision whether or not to give boinc credit for MT depends somewhat on how important you consider the MT work is. I would imagine that the amount of effort the crew put into it will almost certainly be greatly reduced if it is rewarded by a separate credit system.

My own opinion is to let the credit already earned stand, also if possible credit teams with what all that has been earned to date. With regard to the future I feel that after a date announced on the recapcha page boinc credit should stop to prevent this being the first step on a slippery slope that may ultimately devalue all boinc credits.
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Message 6777 - Posted: 10 Nov 2007 | 19:44:41 UTC


I afraid that I just don't get the "devalues BOINC credit argument." At such a low credit value per unit, one would have to spend hours if not days at the task to significantly impact BOINC credits at a project level (even on here Pirates@home where normal crunching work is intermittent). I also agree that if BOINC credits are not given for the Turk, then considerbaly less work by the crew will be performed in this task. If the task is deemed at all worthwhile by the Captain, then there is little reason not to give BOINC credit for it.

A question for the Captain...other than the stated purpose of the task, is there any other project benefit or I2U2 benefit? (e.g., webserver load test, tracking active participation, etc.)
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Message 6778 - Posted: 10 Nov 2007 | 22:41:31 UTC - in response to Message 6777.
Last modified: 10 Nov 2007 | 22:43:15 UTC

I afraid that I just don't get the "devalues BOINC credit argument." At such a low credit value per unit, one would have to spend hours if not days at the task to significantly impact BOINC credits at a project level (even on here Pirates@home where normal crunching work is intermittent).


Hi Scott
On it's own, as you say MT credits will have little affect overall (allthough some have managed to achieve scores in the thousands. On this project that makes a big difference) What I was refering to was the possibillity that should awarding Boinc credit for non Boinc tasks become commonplace and accepted in the wider comunity then who knows where it will lead? Boinc credit for the cutest cat picture in the seti forum maybe or even boinc credit for advertising car insurance or personal loans. Okay maybe I'm Exagerating a bit (I hope) but allowing boinc credit out side boinc is a risky bussiness.
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Message 6780 - Posted: 10 Nov 2007 | 23:44:57 UTC - in response to Message 6737.

Dirty John wrote:
I definately think the previously granted credit should not be changed.

I am less sure about future credit. I am leaning towards continuing to grant credit for using the turk. It is a contribution to the project, just not in the normal manner. There has been talk in the past about granting credit for contributions other than simple crunching. Testing these aspects does seem like a job for the pirate crew.

As soon as you posted this, I stopped to think harder. I now think it's the best post in the thread so far.
Ya know, according to Murphy's Law, credits will surely be offered for dubious contributions no matter what any of us think! It will eventually happen.
I'm glad the Captain hasn't made up his mind on the matter yet and hope he doesn't.
Hellfire be damned.
This is an awesome discussion and maybe we should push this to even more ugly waters to see how we all react!
A job for pirates fer sure...

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Message 6782 - Posted: 11 Nov 2007 | 5:40:04 UTC - in response to Message 6778.



On it's own, as you say MT credits will have little affect overall (allthough some have managed to achieve scores in the thousands. On this project that makes a big difference) What I was refering to was the possibillity that should awarding Boinc credit for non Boinc tasks become commonplace and accepted in the wider comunity then who knows where it will lead? Boinc credit for the cutest cat picture in the seti forum maybe or even boinc credit for advertising car insurance or personal loans. Okay maybe I'm Exagerating a bit (I hope) but allowing boinc credit out side boinc is a risky bussiness.


Hi m4rtyn,

I think we are probably more in agreement than our posts appear. I certainly would never want any project to go down the path that you suggest (and while exagerated, I am not so sure that on some projects such crediting would be terribly far-fetched). What may make the MT different is that there is actually a distributed task occuring. Thus, it might seem right to setup a separate credit system (maybe more dubloons...we can always use more Gold!). On the other hand, if the credits can easily be made comparable, then why not use the BOINC accounting?

As for the thousands of credits earned by some using the MT, I think that those were all achieved during the brief period of 1 credit for 1 MT unit. Since the chnage to reduced credit, I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone with more than 100 or so MT credits added.

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Message 6783 - Posted: 11 Nov 2007 | 11:03:42 UTC - in response to Message 6782.

Scott Brown wrote:
What may make the MT different is that there is actually a distributed task occuring. Thus, it might seem right to setup a separate credit system (maybe more dubloons...we can always use more Gold!). On the other hand, if the credits can easily be made comparable, then why not use the BOINC accounting?

In the mean time there is another way of automatizing the way of solving (re)Captchas "distributely" - see Trojan tricks users into reading captchas report. I think it should be possible to reroute Pirates' MT tasks to other internet users, souldn't it? ,-)
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Message 6784 - Posted: 11 Nov 2007 | 17:18:22 UTC
Last modified: 11 Nov 2007 | 17:19:43 UTC

Scott Brown wrote:

...As for the thousands of credits earned by some using the MT, I think that those were all achieved during the brief period of 1 credit for 1 MT unit. Since the chnage to reduced credit, I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone with more than 100 or so MT credits added.

Well I guess I must have too much time on my hands, I have put up well over 1K since the credit was reduced to 0.1 cobbies. Woody Woodpecker has done even more! In a quick check of the stats it appears a few others have put up in excess of 300.

Scott Brown wrote:

...What may make the MT different is that there is actually a distributed task occuring. Thus, it might seem right to setup a separate credit system (maybe more dubloons...we can always use more Gold!). On the other hand, if the credits can easily be made comparable, then why not use the BOINC accounting?...

Since the Mechanical Turk page still says the task is worth BOINC credit, in all fairness I believe the current earned by those participating should stand. If the captain wants to use a separate reward system for future reCAPTCHA tasks I have no argument.
Yeah, gold Dubloons sound OK, a pirate can never get enough of those, set a high target goal though. Whatever compensation the captain finally decides on is all right with me.

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Message 6785 - Posted: 11 Nov 2007 | 17:47:20 UTC - in response to Message 6784.

DrBob @ SETI.USA wrote:
Scott Brown wrote:

...As for the thousands of credits earned by some using the MT, I think that those were all achieved during the brief period of 1 credit for 1 MT unit. Since the chnage to reduced credit, I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone with more than 100 or so MT credits added.

Well I guess I must have too much time on my hands, I have put up well over 1K since the credit was reduced to 0.1 cobbies. Woody Woodpecker has done even more! In a quick check of the stats it appears a few others have put up in excess of 300.

Some people have server farm to do crunching. All I have is twelve fingers!

Scott Brown wrote:

...What may make the MT different is that there is actually a distributed task occuring. Thus, it might seem right to setup a separate credit system (maybe more dubloons...we can always use more Gold!). On the other hand, if the credits can easily be made comparable, then why not use the BOINC accounting?...

Since the Mechanical Turk page still says the task is worth BOINC credit, in all fairness I believe the current earned by those participating should stand. If the captain wants to use a separate reward system for future reCAPTCHA tasks I have no argument.
Yeah, gold Dubloons sound OK, a pirate can never get enough of those, set a high target goal though. Whatever compensation the captain finally decides on is all right with me.

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Message 6786 - Posted: 11 Nov 2007 | 17:48:38 UTC - in response to Message 6785.


Some people have server farm to do crunching. All I have is twelve fingers!

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Message 6787 - Posted: 11 Nov 2007 | 17:51:57 UTC - in response to Message 6786.

Woody Woodpecker wrote:

Some people have server farm to do crunching. All I have is twelve fingers!
AH!
Two extra digits! That’s why I cannot catch you!

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Message 6788 - Posted: 11 Nov 2007 | 18:37:28 UTC - in response to Message 6777.

Scott Brown wrote:

A question for the Captain...other than the stated purpose of the task, is there any other project benefit or I2U2 benefit? (e.g., webserver load test, tracking active participation, etc.)

There is no direct further benefit to Pirates@Home, nor is there direct benefit for I2U2. Indirectly, the discussion this has prompted about the meaning of BOINC credit is quite valuable. And the solved reCAPTCHAs are a benefit to that project, though that is a separate thing.

The immediate goal of the Mechanical Turk was to see how easy it is to make use of reCAPTCHA, and that goal has been accomplished. I found that it is fairly easy to incorporate reCAPTCHAs into the BOINC software. In the future you may therefore see reCAPTCHAs on other BOINC projects, for such things as creating accounts, creating or editing profiles, or perhaps even posting to the forums (on projects where there is a spam problem). My hope is that it is set up as an optional element, so that projects can choose to use it or not, as is best for that project. Rytis is the web software coordinator, so he and/or DA will have the final say on that.

So the real question is what to do now? We could just turn off the turk and call it a success. Or leave it running, since it does do something useful for someone. If it's left running then what reward is to be offered? BOINC credit for this project, a dubloon per thousand CAPTCHAs (or at what rate?), or just a separate high score?

Previously awarded BOINC credit will remain. Once given, I don't want to take it away, though I did consider doing so. Some folks profited greatly from the initial high reward per task, but they also helped greatly by being the first to try it out. They deserve some reward for that.


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Message 6789 - Posted: 11 Nov 2007 | 20:44:29 UTC - in response to Message 6788.

Wormholio wrote:
...So the real question is what to do now? We could just turn off the turk and call it a success. Or leave it running, since it does do something useful for someone. If it's left running then what reward is to be offered? BOINC credit for this project, a dubloon per thousand CAPTCHAs (or at what rate?), or just a separate high score?

Previously awarded BOINC credit will remain. Once given, I don't want to take it away, though I did consider doing so. Some folks profited greatly from the initial high reward per task, but they also helped greatly by being the first to try it out. They deserve some reward for that.

If you leave it running Captain a Gold Dubloon per thousand CAPTCHAs sounds like a fair reward to me.

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Message 6790 - Posted: 11 Nov 2007 | 21:43:22 UTC - in response to Message 6789.

DrBob @ SETI.USA wrote:
Wormholio wrote:
...So the real question is what to do now? We could just turn off the turk and call it a success. Or leave it running, since it does do something useful for someone. If it's left running then what reward is to be offered? BOINC credit for this project, a dubloon per thousand CAPTCHAs (or at what rate?), or just a separate high score?

Previously awarded BOINC credit will remain. Once given, I don't want to take it away, though I did consider doing so. Some folks profited greatly from the initial high reward per task, but they also helped greatly by being the first to try it out. They deserve some reward for that.

If you leave it running Captain a Gold Dubloon per thousand CAPTCHAs sounds like a fair reward to me.


I agree

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Message 6791 - Posted: 11 Nov 2007 | 22:00:28 UTC - in response to Message 6788.



A thousand per dubloon sounds good to me. I also like the idea of a high score list with a count of the CAPTCHAs done so that anyone could see how close they are to their next gold reward.
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Message 6792 - Posted: 11 Nov 2007 | 22:00:49 UTC - in response to Message 6790.


I do not ,-)
This would immeditely mean doubloon inflation .-D

I would consider the test as successful and finished, but as we already have separate counters for succesful reCaptcha answers, I'd leave these still functional.
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Message 6793 - Posted: 11 Nov 2007 | 22:09:37 UTC

Possibly, but crewmembers currently get a doubloon for being User of the Day and that requires no work at all.
A mate would have to put many hours of manual labor in to get a doubloon by means of reCAPTCHA. ;-)

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Message 6794 - Posted: 11 Nov 2007 | 22:32:43 UTC - in response to Message 6793.

DrBob @ SETI.USA wrote:
Possibly, but crewmembers currently get a doubloon for being User of the Day and that requires no work at all.

If the requirements changed. Previously, there were indeed some requirements (albeit tiny, total credit > 0.01, RAC > 0.001) to be fulfilled.
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Message 6798 - Posted: 12 Nov 2007 | 19:52:31 UTC

Maybe we need some Poll?
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Message 6812 - Posted: 14 Nov 2007 | 16:54:22 UTC
Last modified: 14 Nov 2007 | 17:01:15 UTC

So here is what I'm thinking we might do with the Mechanical Turk:

* At some point in the future, which will be announced, credit for the Mechanical Turk will no longer be BOINC credit, but a separate tally.

* At that point, I will reset the M/T scores to zero. If someone wants to preserve the current scores they can. Perhaps Contact will want to preserve the high scores page, or people will want to put their scores in sigs. It's up to the crew to save the records.

* After that, each M/T task will be worth 0.1 "points", as they are now. Whenever someone gets 100 more points they will be awarded a Dubloon. This works out to 1000 M/T tasks per dubloon, which seems to be an agreeable number, but 100 is also a nice number for points. As I now recall, 100 Cobblestones was the target for a real work-horse workunit in BOINC (not the small things we give out here). M/T and BOINC credit will be separate, but it's still nice to have some rough level of comparison, from when they were more closely related during the initial testing.

Comments or additions?
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Message 6815 - Posted: 14 Nov 2007 | 19:20:35 UTC

Hmmm, I was thinking 1,000 reCAPTCHA points per Dubloon which would actually be 10,000 CAPTCHAs. (I just re-read my previous post and can see that is not exactly what I stated.)
If you go with 100 points (1000 CAPTCHAs) Pepo is correct, it would lead to immediate dubloon inflation. Too easy. I would certainly take my share of the gold, but wouldn’t feel as if I earned it.

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Message 6816 - Posted: 14 Nov 2007 | 20:57:54 UTC

I still think the MTpoints are not equal to real pirate credits. Therefore I keep up my invitation for the capt'n to sneak into my lair.

I would propose to transform all MT Boinc- credits into MT Credits even those already given as Boinc Credits. At a rate of 0.1 even for those given with another ratio.
And then I wouldn't devalue the dubloons too much:
1,000 recaptchas for the first D; 5,000 for the second 10,000 for the third; 50,000 for the fourth.
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Message 6817 - Posted: 14 Nov 2007 | 21:01:32 UTC - in response to Message 6816.

Kalessin wrote:
And then I wouldn't devalue the dubloons too much:
1,000 recaptchas for the first D; 5,000 for the second 10,000 for the third; 50,000 for the fourth.

Good point: a steep learning curve .-D
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Message 6818 - Posted: 14 Nov 2007 | 22:23:31 UTC

So far the crew have solved 120836 reCAPTCHA tasks since the Mechanical Turk started. At 10,000 per dubloon, that would be 12 dubloons, which sounds about right. Certainly 120 dubloons for what he have done so far would be too much.

I don't want to take BOINC credit away once it has been awarded.

But I also don't want to award dubloons for work already rewarded with BOINC credit. That would be double-dipping.

A graduated scale of 5,000 for first, 10,000 for next, 20,000 for next, 40,000 and so one has some attraction. It would be easy to get to the first reward level, but harder and harder to get higher and higher in the Pirates' exclusive Dubloon Club. Twice as much work for each level, in fact.

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Message 6819 - Posted: 14 Nov 2007 | 22:57:25 UTC - in response to Message 6818.

Wormholio wrote:
I don't want to take BOINC credit away once it has been awarded.
You're the Capt'n capt'n! But then I would encourage a change date of approximately 14 Nov. 2007 24:00 GMT (3 minutes left)

Wormholio wrote:
But I also don't want to award dubloons for work already rewarded with BOINC credit. That would be double-dipping.

With this I absolutely agree. I would just have preferred a Dubloon instead of stained credits.

Wormholio wrote:
A graduated scale of 5,000 for first, 10,000 for next, 20,000 for next, 40,000 and so one has some attraction. It would be easy to get to the first reward level, but harder and harder to get higher and higher in the Pirates' exclusive Dubloon Club. Twice as much work for each level, in fact.

*Happy Dragon enjoys, you liked its idea!

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Message 6820 - Posted: 14 Nov 2007 | 23:32:26 UTC - in response to Message 6818.

Wormholio wrote:
...A graduated scale of 5,000 for first, 10,000 for next, 20,000 for next, 40,000 and so one has some attraction. It would be easy to get to the first reward level, but harder and harder to get higher and higher in the Pirates' exclusive Dubloon Club. Twice as much work for each level, in fact.
I also like this idea! ;-)

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Message 6823 - Posted: 15 Nov 2007 | 2:21:10 UTC - in response to Message 6818.



I definitely like the idea of a graduated scale. I wonder though if dubloons are the right currency (though more gold is always good!) since they are tied already to the POTD? While it would be more work for the Cap'n, I wonder if a third reward wouldn't work as well (maybe different levels of ships--sloop, two-master, schooner, barque, ,brigantine, etc.--since a pirate fleet would be nice to hall all the gold)?

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Message 6825 - Posted: 15 Nov 2007 | 11:43:26 UTC - in response to Message 6812.

Wormholio wrote:
...Perhaps Contact will want to preserve the high scores page...

Sounds like fun! I'll practice tonight at 8PM EST, unless my ISP does the same as last night to me. I'll post a link when done and try to update 'til the change is made.
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have fun

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Message 6829 - Posted: 15 Nov 2007 | 17:39:54 UTC - in response to Message 6823.

Scott Brown wrote:
I definitely like the idea of a graduated scale. I wonder though if dubloons are the right currency (though more gold is always good!) ...

Perhaps silver instead of gold?


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Message 6833 - Posted: 16 Nov 2007 | 5:19:02 UTC

Mechanical Turk credit pages are now archived!

http://www.inetsonic.com/piskun/Archives/turk/top_turks.php

I'll try to update before the captain resets the M/T scores to zero.
Later, I'll attempt to figure out why I can't make images and tables to both display properly at the same time. (The more I learn, the less I know).

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Message 6861 - Posted: 25 Nov 2007 | 13:45:53 UTC

I just found out about this and now finished reading this thread.

I like the idea that you can earn better and better ships for MT work best.
If you give out reward tokens that seem to have the same value at a higher and higher price that sounds a bit strange to me.
A better ship on the other hand is certainly worth more and more work and would reflect the scaled up work best.

As for past work I agree to keep already granted BOINCcredit but not count it to what ever new reward will be decited.


http://pirates.spy-hill.net/mechanical_turk.php wrote:

This is the Pirates@Home mechanical turk.

If you solve the task presented below, you will be given project credit.
Each task is currently worth 0.1 BOINC Cobblestones on Pirates@Home.


Could the captain change this to reflect the changed reward system. To me it still sounded like this was going towards my BOINC credit and team.

If I had not looked around a bit more I would probabaly not have known that this conclution was wrong.


To all the hard working pirates here:
Its great to sail with you. You are great company.

Holly

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Message 6878 - Posted: 15 Dec 2007 | 16:57:29 UTC

Looks like the Turk is broken? It just repeated the exact same two words ten times in a row?


____________

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Message 6879 - Posted: 16 Dec 2007 | 0:16:19 UTC - in response to Message 6878.
Last modified: 16 Dec 2007 | 0:17:00 UTC

Scott Brown wrote:
Looks like the Turk is broken? It just repeated the exact same two words ten times in a row?


Seems to work quite fine for me!

But at seti@home beta I have also a recatcha problem that is not shared by everyone:
Trying to create a profile I am asked to do a recaptcha, but there is no box but only a
"This reCAPTCHA key isn't authorized for the given domain. More info"
Made me think noone could get them, if the domain had a authorization problem. But there are people who could get them, some who could after emptying cache etc and ones like me who could do anything without success. I tried three PCs linux and Win Firefox and I.e..

thread there
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Message 6880 - Posted: 16 Dec 2007 | 1:22:16 UTC - in response to Message 6829.
Last modified: 16 Dec 2007 | 2:04:42 UTC

Wormholio wrote:
Scott Brown wrote:
I definitely like the idea of a graduated scale. I wonder though if dubloons are the right currency (though more gold is always good!) ...

Perhaps silver instead of gold?


Use 'Pieces of Eight' instead of Doubloons as they were silver. I'm trying to remember what, if any, of the lower denominated coins were called. I know that the Pieces of Eight could be split into smaller pieces, hence the name Pieces of Eight. I wonder what the conversion factor was between Doubloons and Pieces of Eight.
Roark

edit- Real, Reals, Reales, Peseta -- eight reals to the piece of eight-- also called a silver dollar. Aha, the old ditty 'shave and a haircut TWO BITS', two bits is slang for an American quarter. A Bit then should equal a Real. One recaptcha to 1 Real/bit -tide

edit2- It appears that preview is not working. ARRGH -2tide
edit3- 16 pieces of eight = 1 doubloon -3tide
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And the wind at your back.

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Message 6882 - Posted: 16 Dec 2007 | 8:09:56 UTC - in response to Message 6642.
Last modified: 16 Dec 2007 | 8:11:39 UTC

Disregard this post. I was just having a Misfit moment.

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Message 6885 - Posted: 16 Dec 2007 | 13:13:04 UTC
Last modified: 16 Dec 2007 | 13:20:58 UTC

Several questions/comments on M/T:

1. Do the caps matter? Is it important to type exactly as showed or can we type all small?

2. How can there be any feedback about the solution if we try to solve OCR-problems? If the solution is known already, what is the whole thing good for?

3. Feedback about what I type is completely random. In many cases it reports "Correct solution" although there is a mistake in the spelling, in other cases I receive "Error: incorrect solution." although what I typed was definitely correct.

4. I do support getting BOINC-credit for this type of work. After all it helps solving a scientific problem - the main idea behind distributed computing.

5. Calculation of RAC seems to be broken. After several days of double-digit credit I still see 0.41 Credits RAC. On the other side many users who did not do any work for several weeks still have considerable RAC. When I started work on M/T my position in RAC became worse and worse instead of netter:



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Message 6887 - Posted: 16 Dec 2007 | 13:30:04 UTC - in response to Message 6885.

Martin P. wrote:
Several questions/comments on M/T:

1. Do the caps matter? Is it important to type exactly as showed or can we type all small?

2. How can there be any feedback about the solution if we try to solve OCR-problems? If the solution is known already, what is the whole thing good for?

3. Feedback about what I type is completely random. In many cases it reports "Correct solution" although there is a mistake in the spelling, in other cases I receive "Error: incorrect solution." although what I typed was definitely correct.

Maybe you'll find some of my tests useful: Message 6679, Message 6676 Message 6669

Peter
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Message 6889 - Posted: 16 Dec 2007 | 16:27:06 UTC - in response to Message 6878.

Scott Brown wrote:
Looks like the Turk is broken? It just repeated the exact same two words ten times in a row?


Is this still the case? I cannot reproduce it. I get a different word each time.

If it is reproducible then what happens if you try the "choose a different challenge" button?

One thing which might cause this is a caching proxy sitting between you and the site. I can try to mitigate that by declaring that the page expires immediately or should not be cached.

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Message 6893 - Posted: 16 Dec 2007 | 17:11:11 UTC - in response to Message 6889.



Late last night it was working again for me and I have not been able to reproduce it since. I didn't try the "choose a different challenge" button. The same challenge came up after bith incorrect and correct answers as well as just refreshing the page. Earlier (a few minutes before that) the reCAPTCHA box itself was missing...everything else on the page was there (including the 'submit' button). I thought that I was just getting a loading problem with the browser, but it was probably related.

The conneciton I was on was wireless with my laptop through my home connection on Road Runner, so I am doubtful about the caching proxy. I am guessing it was some sort of glitch from the reCAPTCHA issuing source?


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Message 6895 - Posted: 16 Dec 2007 | 17:15:49 UTC - in response to Message 6893.

Scott Brown wrote:

...I am guessing it was some sort of glitch from the reCAPTCHA issuing source?


That would be my next guess, since the way it works is basically that the little box you see which displays the text and entry box all comes from their server, just funneled through ours. Maybe someone was using one of their machines to rip a copy of a "Groundhog day" DVD?


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Message 6917 - Posted: 21 Dec 2007 | 20:28:02 UTC - in response to Message 6895.



I was able to repeat part of this error yesterday morning. Specifically, the reCAPTCHA box was entirely missing for a brief period (just had the submit button again) and then later the entry section was there without the surrounding box graphics. In the later case, I was able to enter items successfully. No problems since, though.

The interesting aspect of this was the timing of these events. The first error happened around 9am EST and the second around 10am EST. With the holidays here, this is now not possible to test for a while, but I really suspect that the reCAPTCHA servers get hit with work login spikes since those times slots match work start times for the Eastern and Central US time zones. Has anyone else noticed this (and for other possible big hit time slots...Europe, Japan, etc.)?

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Message 6918 - Posted: 21 Dec 2007 | 22:05:27 UTC - in response to Message 6917.
Last modified: 21 Dec 2007 | 22:06:05 UTC

Scott Brown wrote:
I was able to repeat part of this error yesterday morning. Specifically, the reCAPTCHA box was entirely missing for a brief period (just had the submit button again) and then later the entry section was there without the surrounding box graphics.


Interesting observations. Thanks. It seems that the part we are supposed to get from their server was empty or incomplete. I wonder if it's possible for me to do some error checking of that to try to trap such errors.


The interesting aspect of this was the timing of these events. The first error happened around 9am EST and the second around 10am EST. With the holidays here, this is now not possible to test for a while, but I really suspect that the reCAPTCHA servers get hit with work login spikes since those times slots match work start times for the Eastern and Central US time zones. Has anyone else noticed this (and for other possible big hit time slots...Europe, Japan, etc.)?


Interesting hypothesis! And the best thing is, this can be tested. We can start with your observations and others around those times, but I will also see if I can easily add a button or link to register an "error" in the reCAPTCHA presentation and add that to our activity logging.
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Message 6920 - Posted: 22 Dec 2007 | 9:44:00 UTC - in response to Message 6918.

The interesting aspect of this was the timing of these events. The first error happened around 9am EST and the second around 10am EST. With the holidays here, this is now not possible to test for a while, but I really suspect that the reCAPTCHA servers get hit with work login spikes since those times slots match work start times for the Eastern and Central US time zones. Has anyone else noticed this (and for other possible big hit time slots...Europe, Japan, etc.)?


Interesting hypothesis! And the best thing is, this can be tested. We can start with your observations and others around those times, but I will also see if I can easily add a button or link to register an "error" in the reCAPTCHA presentation and add that to our activity logging.


I can check over here in Asia on Monday morning.

My gut says that you probably won't find as much as a load over here. I asked one of my fellow teachers if she ever ran across it on any Korean websites and she hadn't.

But I always welcome being proven wrong. :-)
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Message 6922 - Posted: 22 Dec 2007 | 19:06:34 UTC

Too bad we couldn't up the credits on the CAPTCHA to 1 credit per shot just for a few days for the holidays.... :)
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Message 6933 - Posted: 25 Dec 2007 | 4:25:30 UTC


Too bad we can't use this as a kind of turk:

http://www.freerice.com/index.php


A good cause anyway...

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Message 6968 - Posted: 4 Jan 2008 | 16:12:14 UTC - in response to Message 6933.

Scott Brown wrote:

Too bad we can't use this as a kind of turk:
http://www.freerice.com/index.php
A good cause anyway...

Intersesting. It looks like they pay for the site by advertisement revenue, which they donate to pay for the rice. The "task" you perform is really for your own improvment, not because it's something a human can do better than a computer.

If we were to incorporate it into a mechanical turk page here we would certainly want to include the advertising, to help pay for the rice. I'm not saying we'll do that, but it does actually overlap with something else I'll be doing soon, so it might be a good warm up. Or a good way to get in trouble...

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Message 6969 - Posted: 4 Jan 2008 | 16:16:42 UTC

The mechanical turk will switch over sometime this weekend to have a separate count of credit, distinct from BOINC credit.

All BOINC credit awarded up until that time will remain.

After the change, you'll get one "turk" credit per task. And be awarded
a silver reale after you do 5000 tasks. The next reale will be at 10000 tasks, the next at 20,000, and so on (double the effort for each one).

I'm testing computation of reales and display. The display and count will be reset at the changeover. Any task will either get BOINC credit (before the change) or turk credit (after the change) but not both.

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Message 6990 - Posted: 5 Jan 2008 | 21:08:42 UTC

Happy turk hunting to everyone!
The stage is yours, I'm retired.

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Message 7004 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 1:21:39 UTC - in response to Message 6969.

Wormholio wrote:
The mechanical turk will switch over sometime this weekend to have a separate count of credit, distinct from BOINC credit.

All BOINC credit awarded up until that time will remain.

After the change, you'll get one "turk" credit per task. And be awarded
a silver reale after you do 5000 tasks. The next reale will be at 10000 tasks, the next at 20,000, and so on (double the effort for each one).

I'm testing computation of reales and display. The display and count will be reset at the changeover. Any task will either get BOINC credit (before the change) or turk credit (after the change) but not both.


Deerist Captin'

i hoping u ment "Pieces of Eight" cuz u wood need 1,275,000 turks to make 8 reales oar 1 "piece of eight", n at 16 "pieces of eight" 2 the dubloon i cain't count thet hi.
thet doobling tween coins is cruela punnismen inded. r u mooregagebanker <;()

frum a crewe mbar


I agree that it is good to divorce the 'mechanical turk' from the Boinc system and the Dubloons/(Doubloons). I'm just thinking that you may have made the bar so high, that many of the crew members may not be able to participate in a meaningful way to this activity.
I know, as already evidenced by some of the crew members with ten fingers, touch typing ability and a brain short from the eyes to the fingers, like old Morse Coders who have a brain short from the ears to the fingers or good stenographers that can do word for word transcriptions, that some of the crew will completely bury the rest of us in back of the pack. That actually is okay with me. I do things at a slower pace, I do not need to be #1.
But, like most people, I do need to see some kind of reward/satisfaction for our time. Time is not the word that I really want, but it is the only word that comes to mind. Earlier in this thread you were thinking that 10,000 was a good break point for a 'doubloon', I'm thinking that 10,000 turks/tasks per 'piece of eight' and 1,250 turks/tasks per reale would be more entertaining for the majority of us crew members as we could see progress from 'turks/tasks' to 'reales' to 'pieces of eight'.

Roark




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Message 7005 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 1:36:52 UTC - in response to Message 7004.
Last modified: 7 Jan 2008 | 1:38:03 UTC

Roark wrote:
Deerist Captin'

i hoping u ment "Pieces of Eight" cuz u wood need 1,275,000 turks to make 8 reales oar 1 "piece of eight", n at 16 "pieces of eight" 2 the dubloon i cain't count thet hi.

You make a good point. The silver coin was worth 8 reales, not one. (See [[w:Spanish dollar]] in the Wikipedia). So now I am wondering if we need to adjust how the coin is awarded for a given level of credit.

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Message 7006 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 2:20:59 UTC

The thing I like most about the award scheme is the doubling. Each level is twice as hard as the previous level, so it represents a real achievement. And the doubling demonstrates how fast a geometric progression can grow.

But Roark makes some very good points. Requiring 5,000 recaptcha solutions for the first award makes it a lot of work just to get started. And the silver coins known as "pieces of eight" were worth 8 reales, not one. Calling the coin award a "reale" is inappropriate.

So I think I have a solution. The awards should be in silver "Pieces of Eight", starting with just 8 recaptcha solutions, then doubling each time. This gives an early reward for participation, and it's even better at demonstrating the growth of a geometric progression, and yet the largest awards are still a real achievement.

I hope the crew will find this small adjustment acceptable.



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Message 7011 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 3:37:44 UTC - in response to Message 7006.



I like the system...But it looks like you are using a threshold of "double + 1" such that one gets 6 silver coins upon completing the 257th turk rather than the 256th. Is this intended?

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Message 7019 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 13:59:23 UTC - in response to Message 7011.

Scott Brown wrote:
I like the system...But it looks like you are using a threshold of "double + 1" such that one gets 6 silver coins upon completing the 257th turk rather than the 256th. Is this intended?


No, it's not intended. I think I've corrected it, but I'll have to catch up to you to verify. :-)

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Message 7020 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 14:04:43 UTC

There seems to be one more issue with Pirates' reCAPTCHA implementation - I've lost at least 4 Turks on it, until noticed :-D

If you try the original page, entering the (in)correct phrase (means: typing in the text and pressing the ENTER key equivalent) behaves the same like when the [ Submit ] button is pressed - the text gets sent and the responce is either "Correct!" above + "Type the two words / Type the eight numbers" inside the dialog, or "Wrong!" above + "Incorrect. Try again." inside the dialog.

If you press the ENTER button on the "Pirates@Home Mechanical Turk" reCAPTCHA dialog, the entered text (whether correct or wrong) simply disappears - we can see no response like "Error: incorrect solution." or "Correct solution". There is just new empty reCAPTCHA dialog.

I have two-three BTW's:
1) possibly the users' Account pages are just worked on - they suddenly display just "Pirates@Home member since", "Country", "URL", "Total credit", "Recent average credit" and "Pirates@Home gold dubloons", the rest of the page is empty.
2) I'm pretty sure I did see a lot of the word combination during our reCaptcha drive a month ago. Do they really scan only ONE book???

it looks like you are using a threshold of "double + 1" such that one gets 6 silver coins upon completing the 257th turk rather than the 256th

3) Am I right this is already correct?
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Message 7027 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 16:10:39 UTC - in response to Message 7020.

Pepo wrote:
1) possibly the users' Account pages are just worked on - they suddenly display just "Pirates@Home member since", "Country", "URL", "Total credit", "Recent average credit" and "Pirates@Home gold dubloons", the rest of the page is empty.


Looks like there is a similar problem with the user profiles.

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Message 7030 - Posted: 7 Jan 2008 | 16:50:24 UTC

I was working on the user profiles. That should now be fixed.

The IE/7 problem I don't know about. It could be that this changed due to a Microsoft update, or due to a change in what the reCAPTCHA server sends, or a combination of both.

Does anybody have a machine with IE/7 which has not had the December update applied to test this hypothesis?

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Message 7053 - Posted: 8 Jan 2008 | 16:43:43 UTC - in response to Message 7006.

Wormholio wrote:
The thing I like most about the award scheme is the doubling. Each level is twice as hard as the previous level, so it represents a real achievement. And the doubling demonstrates how fast a geometric progression can grow.

But Roark makes some very good points. Requiring 5,000 recaptcha solutions for the first award makes it a lot of work just to get started. And the silver coins known as "pieces of eight" were worth 8 reales, not one. Calling the coin award a "reale" is inappropriate.

So I think I have a solution. The awards should be in silver "Pieces of Eight", starting with just 8 recaptcha solutions, then doubling each time. This gives an early reward for participation, and it's even better at demonstrating the growth of a geometric progression, and yet the largest awards are still a real achievement.

I hope the crew will find this small adjustment acceptable.




Deerist Captin

Thankee

Roark
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Message 7055 - Posted: 8 Jan 2008 | 17:27:33 UTC

Captain;
The credits for recapcha appear to off by +1. I just did 64 turks and received 4 'pieces of eight', one piece for 8 + the next after 16 more + the next after 32 more == 56 turks with 8 remaining for the next coin worth 64 turks. To me that should be 3 coins and 8 turks for the next coin. I like the extra coin but, I really don't rate it yet. I'll do more turks tomorrow to see what happens.

Roark
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Message 7056 - Posted: 8 Jan 2008 | 18:45:08 UTC - in response to Message 7055.
Last modified: 8 Jan 2008 | 18:50:49 UTC

This isn't how things appear to be setup. I believe the progression is a coin at 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, etc., or a everytime one's total doubles. This means of course that the first two coins actually require the same number of turks to obtain. I believe that this is a fundamental aspect of any geometric progresion using a doubling factor (e.g., 5, 10, 20, 40,...).



[edited for clarity]

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Message 7057 - Posted: 9 Jan 2008 | 2:52:18 UTC - in response to Message 6990.

Woody Woodpecker wrote:
Happy turk hunting to everyone!
The stage is yours, I'm retired.


Me thinks the lad doth protest too much.

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Message 7058 - Posted: 9 Jan 2008 | 4:02:54 UTC - in response to Message 7030.
Last modified: 9 Jan 2008 | 4:05:21 UTC

Wormholio wrote:
The IE/7 problem I don't know about. It could be that this changed due to a Microsoft update, or due to a change in what the reCAPTCHA server sends, or a combination of both.

Does anybody have a machine with IE/7 which has not had the December update applied to test this hypothesis?



I can't speak for IE7, but the behavior is the same on IE6. They have autoupdates turned off at work and I don't know the last time this machine was patched (unless they specifically refused IE7, then it's been quite a while).

Oh yes, and the turk page (as well as the whole site) looks normal in FF2 but pretty bad in IE6 (but that's a different issue)






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Message 7059 - Posted: 9 Jan 2008 | 5:20:00 UTC - in response to Message 7058.

KSMarksPsych wrote:
Wormholio wrote:
The IE/7 problem I don't know about. It could be that this changed due to a Microsoft update, or due to a change in what the reCAPTCHA server sends, or a combination of both.

Does anybody have a machine with IE/7 which has not had the December update applied to test this hypothesis?


I can't speak for IE7, but the behavior is the same on IE6.

Yep, the enter key no longer works correctly with IE7/WinXP (updated or not) or even IE6 on Win98.
No problems with Firefox or Opera.

KSMarksPsych wrote:
Oh yes, and the turk page (as well as the whole site) looks normal in FF2 but pretty bad in IE6 (but that's a different issue)

Try View-> Text Size-> Smaller (or a larger screen resolution) for a better look to webpages in IE.

I just noticed that I could solve turk without logging in. The instructions should be amended to "If you are logged in and you solve the task presented below correctly..." or restrict the page until we log in.
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Message 7061 - Posted: 9 Jan 2008 | 14:44:43 UTC - in response to Message 7059.

Contact wrote:
I just noticed that I could solve turk without logging in. The instructions should be amended to "If you are logged in and you solve the task presented below correctly..." or restrict the page until we log in.

I was wondering how long it would be until someone noticed this, and if they would cry foul.

I don't want to restrict the page to logged in users. Anybody can try the turk and solve reCAPTCHA tasks for their own enjoyment or personal reward. But I did adjust the text shown so that it does not promise a reward from Pirates@Home if you are not logged in.

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Message 7065 - Posted: 10 Jan 2008 | 13:40:02 UTC


Now that we have an almost full pirate monetary system, the following link should be instructive on how your 'pieces of eight' relate to 'dubloons' and other coinage:

http://blindkat.hegewisch.net/pirates/money.html

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Message 7138 - Posted: 10 Feb 2008 | 11:13:12 UTC

Ahoy Captain!

Can you make it so the bar where you are supposed to write the words automatically gets selected when you load the page? In Opera it doesn't, meaning total chaos when I try to write the word and it is interpreted as shortcuts in the browser!
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Message 7140 - Posted: 10 Feb 2008 | 16:01:57 UTC - in response to Message 7138.

Kenneth Larsen wrote:
Ahoy Captain!

Can you make it so the bar where you are supposed to write the words automatically gets selected when you load the page? In Opera it doesn't, meaning total chaos when I try to write the word and it is interpreted as shortcuts in the browser!

I did in fact do that, but I will look at it again. You need JavaScript turned on for that to work, so check your JavaScript settings.
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Message 7149 - Posted: 12 Feb 2008 | 17:21:55 UTC

It only works for me on the first loading of the site.
I'm using Opera in Linux, and Java is installed and working.

However, I just checked with Firefox, and here it works flawlessly. Seems to be a problem with Opera, then...

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Message 7154 - Posted: 12 Feb 2008 | 20:15:09 UTC - in response to Message 7149.

Kenneth Larsen wrote:
It only works for me on the first loading of the site.
I'm using Opera in Linux, and Java is installed and working.

However, I just checked with Firefox, and here it works flawlessly. Seems to be a problem with Opera, then...

Check your settings in Opera for JavaScript (which is separate from Java).

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Message 7160 - Posted: 16 Feb 2008 | 22:38:24 UTC

According to all I can see, it should work. Javascript is enabled, all options on.
Anyway, it's a minor nuisance, if nobody else is having the same problem it has to be my machine.

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Message 7161 - Posted: 16 Feb 2008 | 22:53:46 UTC - in response to Message 7160.

Kenneth Larsen wrote:
According to all I can see, it should work. Javascript is enabled, all options on.
Anyway, it's a minor nuisance, if nobody else is having the same problem it has to be my machine.

Well, maybe. Anyone else using Opera too, and either do/don't see this problem?

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Message 7163 - Posted: 17 Feb 2008 | 1:32:29 UTC - in response to Message 7149.

Kenneth Larsen wrote:
It only works for me on the first loading of the site.
I'm using Opera in Linux, and Java is installed and working.

Opera in WinXP works on every load of the page for me.

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Message 7165 - Posted: 17 Feb 2008 | 2:30:45 UTC

Some are unreasonable. What do you make of the second word? ;-)


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Message 7166 - Posted: 17 Feb 2008 | 10:46:29 UTC - in response to Message 7161.

Wormholio wrote:
Kenneth Larsen wrote:
According to all I can see, it should work. Javascript is enabled, all options on.
Anyway, it's a minor nuisance, if nobody else is having the same problem it has to be my machine.

Well, maybe. Anyone else using Opera too, and either do/don't see this problem?


I just downloaded the rpm from Opera and installed it. It's version 9.25. It's working the same way for me in both Opera and Firefox, the cursor goes back to the input field for each new trial.


Now if I could just uninstall the rpm, I'd be a happy camper.
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Message 7167 - Posted: 17 Feb 2008 | 21:02:26 UTC - in response to Message 7165.
Last modified: 17 Feb 2008 | 21:04:31 UTC

Some are unreasonable. What do you make of the second word? ;-)

"Hur-"
ricane
;-)

Sounds like it is an isolated problem, I'll look around and see if I can solve it then (Opera, not the impossible words!).

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Message 7182 - Posted: 20 Feb 2008 | 5:25:27 UTC

I use Opera when doing the turks all the time I'm not having any problems with it. Opera 9.25.

I like it better than Firefox for ease of use and appearance but it has more problems than Firefox does with some sites.
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Message 7480 - Posted: 8 Apr 2008 | 23:31:53 UTC - in response to Message 7161.

Gamma^Ray wrote:
Yea, I'm a member on that one also. But so far I haven't gotten any BOINC credits for it yet ? Maybe its only a matter of time for that one. :?


Same here… as there is no “welcome, new member” once-off work unit, I tried to get some initial credit using this… but…

Wormholio wrote:
The mechanical turk will switch over sometime this weekend to have a separate count of credit, distinct from BOINC credit.


… aww that sucks. Especially as the MT page still says you DO get BOINC credit.

Wormholio wrote:
Kenneth Larsen wrote:
According to all I can see, it should work. Javascript is enabled, all options on.
Anyway, it's a minor nuisance, if nobody else is having the same problem it has to be my machine.

Well, maybe. Anyone else using Opera too, and either do/don't see this problem?


Opera 9.27/Linux running on MirBSD, JavaScript™ on, no Java™, no Flash, works fine. With JavaScript™ off, I get the copy-paste version.

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Message 7954 - Posted: 8 Oct 2008 | 15:05:08 UTC - in response to Message 7020.
Last modified: 8 Oct 2008 | 15:11:42 UTC

Pepo wrote:
There seems to be one more issue with Pirates' reCAPTCHA implementation - I've lost at least 4 Turks on it, until noticed :-D

If you try the original page, entering the (in)correct phrase (means: typing in the text and pressing the ENTER key equivalent) behaves the same like when the [ Submit ] button is pressed - the text gets sent and the responce is either "Correct!" above + "Type the two words / Type the eight numbers" inside the dialog, or "Wrong!" above + "Incorrect. Try again." inside the dialog.

If you press the ENTER button on the "Pirates@Home Mechanical Turk" reCAPTCHA dialog, the entered text (whether correct or wrong) simply disappears - we can see no response like "Error: incorrect solution." or "Correct solution". There is just new empty reCAPTCHA dialog.

One more observation of the subject:

While pressing the "Submit" button, I'm getting either "Correct solution Please try another. | Tasks this session: 7, Total turk tasks: 30" or "Error: incorrect solution. No credit awarded. Please try another. | Tasks this session: 7, Total turk tasks: 30".

After "entering" the task ( == pressing the "Enter" (or "Return") keyboard key while focused directly in the input field), both result texts (left and right) disappear. After "submitting" one more correct task, I can see "Tasks this session: 1, Total turk tasks: 31".

Task this session - does this mean, that while "entering" the task (on IE 6/7), the Turk session is restarted, instead of calling the reCaptcha server with my response? Is there something relevant in the PHP implementation?

BTW, IMHO "Correct solution" is missing either a green trailing dot ("."), which terminates all other similar sentences, or better an exclamation mark ("!"), like it was implemented on the original page.
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Message 7966 - Posted: 9 Oct 2008 | 12:09:01 UTC - in response to Message 7954.

Pepo wrote:

Task this session - does this mean, that while "entering" the task (on IE 6/7), the Turk session is restarted, instead of calling the reCaptcha server with my response? Is there something relevant in the PHP implementation?

Right now the count of how many tasks done in a "session" is maintained between iterations as a hidden input variable. This means that if you go away (even just to check the scoreboard) and come back, the count starts over.

It may be possible to make this count a PHP session variable, in which case it would expire when your PHP session expires, but not just for going off to other parts of the site for a bit. I'll see what I can do.

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Message 7967 - Posted: 9 Oct 2008 | 13:05:04 UTC - in response to Message 7966.

Tasks this session - does this mean, that while "entering" the task (on IE 6/7), the Turk session is restarted, instead of calling the reCaptcha server with my response? Is there something relevant in the PHP implementation?

Right now the count of how many tasks done in a "session" is maintained between iterations as a hidden input variable. This means that if you go away (even just to check the scoreboard) and come back, the count starts over.

But I do not go away from the page, I just press enter key while focused either on the input line or the Submit button.

It may be possible to make this count a PHP session variable, in which case it would expire when your PHP session expires, but not just for going off to other parts of the site for a bit. I'll see what I can do.

This might be interesting for those, who solve hundreds turks in a row, and maybe would also solve this, but... possibly by hiding the culprit :-)

Looking at the relevant piece of code (not that I do understand much of it, but found it thanks to your hidden input variable hint):
<form name='recaptcha' action='/mechanical_turk.php' method='POST'>
<input type='hidden' name='credit_so_far' value='1'>
<center>
<script type="text/javascript" src="http://api.recaptcha.net/challenge?k=6LdDjwAAAAAAAEG3LhU3J6Nbxo4imeJhRS8zAQWm"></script>

<noscript>
<iframe src="http://api.recaptcha.net/noscript?k=6LdDjwAAAAAAAEG3LhU3J6Nbxo4imeJhRS8zAQWm" height="300" width="500" frameborder="0"></iframe><br>
<textarea name="recaptcha_challenge_field" rows="3" cols="40"></textarea>
<input type="hidden" name="recaptcha_response_field" value="manual_challenge">
</noscript><br/>
<noscript>
<br/>
Enter the confirmation code from above here and then press 'Submit'
<br/>
</noscript>

<input type='submit' name='recaptcha_submit' value='Submit'>
</center>
<p align='right'>Correct tasks this session: 1</br>Total turk tasks: 32</p>
<script>
document.recaptcha.recaptcha_response_field.focus();
</script>
</form>

I suppose "action='/mechanical_turk.php' method='POST'" describes, what will happen after pressing "Submit" button. I do not reveal what action is described when I press Enter on the text input field. Could the same "action='/mechanical_turk.php'" be bound to it?
____________
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Message 7968 - Posted: 9 Oct 2008 | 13:09:40 UTC - in response to Message 7967.
Last modified: 9 Oct 2008 | 13:12:33 UTC

Looking at the relevant piece of code (not that I do understand much of it, but found it thanks to your hidden input variable hint):





Enter the confirmation code from above here and then press 'Submit'



Correct tasks this session: 1Total turk tasks: 32

document.recaptcha.recaptcha_response_field.focus();


I suppose "action='/mechanical_turk.php' method='POST'" describes, what will happen after pressing "Submit" button...

Bad, I can not edit my post with code, it possibly gets somehow interpreted upon the action and just some remnants of the text are left in the [ code ] area, as you can see in this once more edited message :-(

Additionally, it looks excellent on SeaMonkey, but just terribly unintended on IE :-((
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Message 7969 - Posted: 9 Oct 2008 | 15:26:03 UTC - in response to Message 7967.

Pepo wrote:

I suppose "action='/mechanical_turk.php' method='POST'" describes, what will happen after pressing "Submit" button. I do not reveal what action is described when I press Enter on the text input field. Could the same "action='/mechanical_turk.php'" be bound to it?

Yes, it should be. Though that is in the JavaScript code loaded from the recaptcha.net site.
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Message 7970 - Posted: 9 Oct 2008 | 18:16:37 UTC - in response to Message 7969.

I suppose "action='/mechanical_turk.php' method='POST'" describes, what will happen after pressing "Submit" button. I do not reveal what action is described when I press Enter on the text input field. Could the same "action='/mechanical_turk.php'" be bound to it?

Yes, it should be. Though that is in the JavaScript code loaded from the recaptcha.net site.

It really happens this way on Safari and SeaMonkey, but does not on IE. Again the behavior in border cases?? Interestingly IE works fine directly in reCaptcha site.

I've noticed on Safari, that after pressing Enter on the input line, the Submit button flashes very briefly, as if it were automagically pressed. Maybe this happens also on the SeaMonkey browser (but not visibly), but not on IE.
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Message 7973 - Posted: 10 Oct 2008 | 2:22:07 UTC - in response to Message 7966.

Wormholio wrote:
Right now the count of how many tasks done in a "session" is maintained between iterations as a hidden input variable. This means that if you go away (even just to check the scoreboard) and come back, the count starts over.

It may be possible to make this count a PHP session variable, in which case it would expire when your PHP session expires, but not just for going off to other parts of the site for a bit. I'll see what I can do.

Done. Now the "count in this session" refers to your PHP session. You can go off and look at the top scores, or read the forums, or whatever, and come back, and the session count will continue where it left off. Unless you log out or leave your terminal for too long.

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Message 7975 - Posted: 10 Oct 2008 | 3:50:19 UTC - in response to Message 7973.



I can verify that it appears to be working as stated...even if you go out to play in the Glossary/Wiki. However, even though one isn't actually "logged out" from Pirates@Home by doing so, closing and reopening the browser does not maintain the session (not that it should...just a third thing to add to the "Unless..." list).


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Message 7976 - Posted: 10 Oct 2008 | 9:10:35 UTC - in response to Message 7973.
Last modified: 10 Oct 2008 | 9:13:46 UTC

Right now the count of how many tasks done in a "session" is maintained between iterations as a hidden input variable.

It may be possible to make this count a PHP session variable, in which case it would expire when your PHP session expires, but not just for going off to other parts of the site for a bit.

Done. Now the "count in this session" refers to your PHP session. You can go off and look at the top scores, or read the forums, or whatever, and come back, and the session count will continue where it left off.

OK, this is true and when pressing Enter on the input field, I can still see "Correct tasks this session: 2, Total turk tasks: 41" at the bottom right side, although neither "Correct solution!" (with excl. mark ,-) nor "Incorrect. Try again." comment is displayed at the upper left side.

It is probably because of the dialog behavior implementation, as you suggested. This would mean, that the reCaptcha site uses a different implementation, than the rest of the world?

OK, fair enough, I've tried to create a profile on the few BOINC projects, which use the reCaptcha check: Seti, Seti Beta, Rosetta, Cels, Orbit, Cosmology, the behavior was the same: After pressing "Enter" button on the reCaptcha input line (instead of the page's "Create account" button), the whole contents of my newly written profile texts were plain ignored and lost and the whole blanked "Create a profile" page was displayed again, as if I'd press an imaginary "Reset" button .-(
____________
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Message 7978 - Posted: 10 Oct 2008 | 11:30:17 UTC - in response to Message 7976.
Last modified: 10 Oct 2008 | 11:30:55 UTC

Pepo wrote:
as if I'd press an imaginary "Reset" button .-(

That may be a hint. Normally when you press Enter it's taken to be the same as pressing the first submit button/control on the page. Perhaps IE implements it as the last one instead? That is a hypothesis we could easily test.

In addition to all other BOINC sites using reCaptcha, what happens with IE on the reCaptcha reference site? Same or different?

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Message 7979 - Posted: 10 Oct 2008 | 12:08:36 UTC - in response to Message 7978.



In addition to all other BOINC sites using reCaptcha, what happens with IE on the reCaptcha reference site? Same or different?


I have no problems on this with IE. Both using the submit button or just pressing enter gives both the correct/incorrect messages and the count of total digitized words.


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